[00:00:00] Dr. Jessica Singh: Welcome to the Holistic physician Coaching Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Jessica Singh. This podcast explores physician health, wellbeing, and fulfillment, embracing all aspects of the human experience. Just as in medicine where a single interaction can transform a life, this podcast is grounded on the belief that each coaching conversation has the power to inspire, heal, and bring about meaningful change. 

[00:00:35] In this session, I have the privilege of being mentored by Clare Norman. With over 20 years of coaching experience, Clare Norman is a master coach whose purpose is to enable people to feel truly seen for who they really are, emboldening them to find their voice and express their needs in service of a more caring world.

[00:00:56] With that end goal in mind, Clare is on a mission to encourage coaches to be more vocal about coachability, expecting more of coaching custodians and thinkers alike, such that those thinkers are coaching ready. With an international following of both her coaching peers and senior leadership, Clare is making a difference to the world of work by the professional application of coaching.

[00:01:21] Clare, I'm so grateful to have this mentoring session with you today.

[00:01:24] Clare Norman, MCC: You are very welcome. It's nice to be back with you. So I'd like to kick off by asking you what you have been putting into practice since the last time we had a mentor coaching session together.

[00:01:38] Dr. Jessica Singh: Sure. So, just for our listeners, I've had the privilege of being mentored by Clare and the last mentoring session, one of my biggest takeaways was if there is any discord, and I feel like I'm doing too much of the work, to be very transparent and open about it, 'cause I was coaching someone senior to me.

[00:01:58] And so I acknowledged it upfront with the person the next coaching session, and they appreciated it very much, because in medicine, there's such a hierarchy. And so it was really humbling, powerful, empowering, something so simple just to be transparent about, and it completely transformed a lot of the rapport and the way that container was held.

[00:02:20] So I'm very grateful to you.

[00:02:22] Clare Norman, MCC: That is so useful that that was the difference that it made to her and to you, I guess. 

[00:02:29] Dr. Jessica Singh: Thank you. It's also something that I'm much more aware of since that session with you. And so for every coaching session since then, it's come into my mind.

[00:02:39] Clare Norman, MCC: So what else have you been able to be transparent about?

[00:02:44] Dr. Jessica Singh: Now I incorporate that into my normal coaching, at the beginning at least, settling roles and expectations, and how this is very different, especially than a medicine hierarchy, 'cause I've been coaching physicians. Whether they are in a place where I feel, you know, if they're a physician in training and going through it, and I feel like, "Oh, I can help and give advice," that's not my role, so I'm more transparent about that.

[00:03:07] I've also been able to apply that to if someone is more in story rather than in shifting from known to new thinking, and I feel like I don't want to interrupt or there's something about the relationship that's a little challenging for me to get to a coaching place instead of a cozy conversation place. Now I'm able to utilize what we had discussed together to say, just pull back and say, "Hey, I appreciate the details, but we need to shift-- the purpose of coaching is to shift the thinking, so how can we do that together that would be valuable to you?"

[00:03:40] Clare Norman, MCC: And is that the one that we're listening to today, or that's a different one for another time?

[00:03:45] Dr. Jessica Singh: Today is actually-- so to give a little background behind today's episode, today is my first coaching session we're going to listen to with Dr. Mary. She's a family medicine intern in the US. I have her consent to coach her for the podcast. I have her consent to have this session be mentored by you for the podcast. So this was really special to me. It's the first coaching session with her, and I hadn't received much mentoring in my first one, first sessions in a relationship. And so two questions I really had with this session were, one, in the initial session, how much is more exploration, ideal state versus current state?

[00:04:26] And when is it okay to set goals in the first session that aren't premature and that's still further thinking between the first session and next? So those are a couple of questions. And then also with this one, it's not just identifying the situation someone wants to be coached, right? It's what about that specific situation do they wanna work on. So there are little nuances that came up with this that I'm really grateful to get to meet you today and discuss.

[00:04:50] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. What great questions! How much exploration of the ideal state do you wanna do in the first session, and then when to set goals so that it's not premature? Ooh, I think we could both learn something from this, definitely. Mm-hmm.

[00:05:08] Dr. Jessica Singh: There's a little bit. So with this one, it was also special in terms of background and coach self-management too. So I was initially just thinking about doing this podcast to make coaching more accessible to physicians in training. There is a lot of red tape trying to get into organizations sometimes, and so I will always fight the good fight, but that's why I did this. And I'm removed from medical training. It's been four or five years since I've practiced. So finding a client, I cold outreached on social media. I did things that I normally don't do, 'cause I really wanted to work with a physician in training. I was actually about to be like, "Okay, maybe this isn't gonna happen," and this person responded to me.

[00:05:47] And I kind of took it as a sign from the universe, because a topic she wants to be coached on, she's a new doctor for the first time. She's in internship. She's also a new mother. And so the purpose of the coaching is to help her with the transition of becoming a new mom and balancing being a physician.

[00:06:05] Clare Norman, MCC: Nice.

[00:06:06] Dr. Jessica Singh: I saw it as kind of like a gift or a sign from the cosmos that this was meant to be, because I've been working... It's been a long journey to try to become a parent, to be very honest. And I thought at the soul and spiritual level, how wonderful it would be to coach mothers. I never really got there as a physician because I kinda felt like an imposter.

[00:06:25] How can I say I wanna do this when I'm not one myself yet? And so there was a lot of self-management, but I felt like it was the universe giving this blessing that like, "No, this is supposed to happen, and you're gonna help so many people." And so this is also where the idea for mentoring from you came from, because after I coached with her, I realized who am I to do this?

[00:06:44] And I'm only at the ACC level, and how do you keep... but then I grounded in gratitude. This is a service here to help and transform. Coaching is a process, ever-evolving, and so all I can do is walk the talk and get mentored by someone that I know and trust, which is you.

[00:07:00] Clare Norman, MCC: Nice. Nice.

[00:07:02] Dr. Jessica Singh: So I could start from the beginning.

[00:07:05] Clare Norman, MCC: Well,

[00:07:06] if you could tell me and our listeners what it is that you particularly think that you did well in this session before we dig into it.

[00:07:20] Dr. Jessica Singh: Not question stacking. So as I was re-listening to this to prepare for this episode, I thought that... And this is one of the questions I had. So rather than spending so much time on reflecting, which I know is powerful and appropriate where it needs to be, as I was listening to this, a lot of the questions I felt moved her to new thinking, and I thought that was wonderful for a first coaching session to explore her values, addressing more of the who rather than the what.

[00:07:48] Clare Norman, MCC: Ah, beautiful. Ooh. Yeah, that sends shivers down my spine 'cause that is such powerful work to be helping a person to understand who they are and what's important to them and what their values are, et cetera. Yeah. Anything else you want to give yourself credit for?

[00:08:09] Dr. Jessica Singh: Some of the questions as I was listening to her and our interactions, I was able to utilize her words to phrase the questions. And so mirroring the language of the thinker, I thought it worked well. I thought it was well-received for her. And I was surprised that I did that because when you talk about coach presence and being with the other person, one thing I've noticed is sometimes I feel like I'm energetically present, but I'm not able to catch the words. It happens sometimes. And so then when it comes to giving a reflection, sometimes I do, do it, i'm able to capture everything. But sometimes I ask questions that move to a space of new thinking instead. And so in previous mentoring, sometimes I'd be like, "Oh, maybe you could have asked more about this."

[00:08:51] But it's just my nature. I've been moving in a different way, and I realize a lot of it has to do with the energy and presence. And so I'm not distracted or preoccupied or thinking about other things. I'm fully with my thinker. It's just I feel like sometimes I'm with them at a level that the words kind of-- they kind of just flow, if that makes sense.

[00:09:09] I don't know if that's happened to you.

[00:09:11] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll see if we spot any of those in your recording. Um, yeah. And if you had your time again, what would you wish to do differently in this session?

[00:09:24] Dr. Jessica Singh: Mm-hmm. That's a really good question. I think maybe focusing a little bit more on, so this was the first coaching session, and in it I did re-explain what coaching was and how it differs from mentoring and other things. And we had done that before our first coaching session. I think having-- maybe this is for me in my own work, is to create more of a resource so that preliminary explanation is available either in a blog or some kind of document before coaching. And then one of the things that I would like to work on in first sessions especially is how to help guide that own work after the first session where you're just exploring what and where coaching can be useful in the next session. So it seems-- not like, again, prematurely setting goals, but so someone knows-- has more direction, I guess, in between the two sessions.

[00:10:19] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Particularly if they are completely new to coaching, and they might just wonder, "Hmm, now what am I meant to do?" Yeah. 

[00:10:30] Okay. And in the coaching itself, is there anything there that you spotted that you think, "Ooh, I wish I could have tweaked that bit"?

[00:10:41] Dr. Jessica Singh: I'm curious as to feedback. There are a couple of places I had written down timestamps, uh, where it was one of those, was this an opportunity for a reflection? But I had asked a question that kind of shifted her to a different place. I think they both have their value. I just... I'm curious if there's a way I can do that more effectively.

[00:11:00] Clare Norman, MCC: Okay.

[00:11:01] Dr. Jessica Singh: And then I think I was avoiding my own bias. So there was one part where Dr. Mary was talking about work-life balance and women in medicine, and I have my own very strong views on these. And so this happens all the time with coaching, especially when you're in that background, have that background.

[00:11:20] And so when I was re-listening to it, I think with my biased eyes, that I did not interject my own bias and rather asked her to think about "do you feel like this balance is actually possible?" Like, what about using her words? And so that's something that I'm curious, because this comes up a lot, and so it's that self-management is so tricky when you really have passion and opinions about things.

[00:11:43] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Yeah, I really hear you. Yeah, all right. Well, we'll look out for those when we get to them. So which parts do you particularly want us to listen into to give you the most value from this mentor coaching?

[00:11:58] Dr. Jessica Singh: So the setting the agreement, maybe the first ten minutes, and then there's bits in the middle where instead of reflection, just switching the conversation in a new direction, and definitely the last nine minutes, the closing as well, and learning and figuring out about... I felt like because this was the first session, I guided more of the closing in terms of how are you accountable?

[00:12:23] How do you like to learn those kinds of questions, whereas I know we are supposed to co-partner and figure out usually how to end together in a way that's meaningful, and so trying to find a balance between that, especially in the first session.

[00:12:37] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Yeah. And, we know the process of coaching so much better than a, a person who's come to us for the first time. So I can really feel that draw to guiding that process more in the first couple of sessions, and then after that, allow them to co-create that ending. So, yeah. Okay. So shall we listen to the first 10 minutes then? And

[00:13:06] if there are any parts where you want to stop, then feel free to stop, and we'll, reflect and digest at that point. Or we'll listen to 10 minutes' worth and see what we spot.

[00:13:20] Dr. Jessica Singh: Sure. I picked out a few places in the first ten minutes . If something comes to you, obviously I'm very willing to learn. But one of the parts at about two minutes and seventeen seconds, I had given a simple reflection, and in my initial coach training, this was emphasized a lot, and then the more I started learning from mentor coaches and other coaches, I basically was-- kind of received that simple reflection and parroting is something that should not be done so often.

[00:13:47] And so if you're giving a reflection, try to do a complex reflection and keep it brief or... But then I do know, I've seen it sometimes where the simple reflection, having them hear their own words is really powerful, and so I'm just curious if parroting or simple reflections is something to, like, stay away from completely or just use it when appropriate.

[00:14:09] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah, it is more of a kind of less is more approach rather than don't ever do it. But, yeah. Shall we listen up to that point then and

[00:14:17] then. 

[00:14:19] Dr. Jessica Singh: Sure.

[00:14:19] Okay. so I'll just press play from the beginning. 

[00:14:25] Today I have the privilege of coaching Mary, who is a family physician in her first year of residency in the united States. This is our first coaching session together. Welcome, Mary. 

[00:14:39] Dr. Mary: Good to be 

[00:14:39] here. 

[00:14:41] Dr. Jessica Singh: How are you doing today? 

[00:14:41] Dr. Mary: Doing all right. A little sleepy, but I'm here, so thank you for having me.

[00:14:49] Dr. Jessica Singh: Sure. I know this is our first coaching session together, so in this session today, we will get to know and explore what brings you to coaching. And we have about forty-five minutes together, so we may or may not get through all of this in one session. If it takes more than one session, it's perfectly okay.

[00:15:10] And this is more of an exploration phase, really, to assess what's going on and to figure out where you'd like to explore and how you think coaching can help you. Since it's early on, that's the agenda or intent for initial conversations. And then you'll see as we continue coaching together, you will be the one driving, and you're gonna be driving for the rest of our sessions together.

[00:15:32] And the topics, everything that we explore is completely up to you. 

[00:15:39] Dr. Mary: Thank you. 

[00:15:40] Dr. Jessica Singh: What brings you to coaching?

[00:15:42] Dr. Mary: Yeah. So you introduced the concept to me, and I really like the idea of in this period of my life right now, being an intern, but also I'm a new mom as of five weeks ago yesterday, and on maternity leave experiencing all that there is with motherhood.

[00:16:01] Also having lots of, you know, big transitions and mental, emotional, let's say, transitions as well, and just thinking about going back to residency and all the things. So trying to, let's say, set myself up for success in the balance of being a mother and a doctor, and I have no idea how that quite looks like.

[00:16:28] So that was... that's the primary reason why I've been drawn to coaching with you. 

[00:16:32] Dr. Jessica Singh: So you're having a lot of new transitions. 

[00:16:37] Dr. Mary: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:38] Dr. Jessica Singh: New experiences, beginning of motherhood, balancing that with being a physician and having this precious gift of time off and then preparing to go back to work. 

[00:16:49] Dr. Mary: Yeah. Yeah. Mm, very much.

[00:16:51] A big transition of having twelve-hour days in the hospital, if not more, from being on maternity leave. So, yes, that, as well as being a new physician, because I'm only, I guess, technically five months into intern year, so it's a lot. 

[00:17:11] Dr. Jessica Singh: And what are you hoping to maybe explore more with coaching? 

[00:17:17] Dr. Mary: I'm honestly not quite sure, 'cause the idea of coaching is still kinda new to me.

[00:17:22] Like, I know it's not counseling, I know it's... we're not, like, therapy, I know it's not like a typical mentorship. So kind of exploring how this dynamic can just kinda help me explore my own thoughts and myself and in gaining, I guess, confidence in this transition and being less fearful and all of the mixed emotions that can come with big transitions in life in general, but also working and being a mother and all the things.

[00:17:54] Dr. Jessica Singh: Well put. It's one thing to say, "Hey, this is what coaching is," especially, uh... Have you coached before? 

[00:18:01] Dr. Mary: I have not.

[00:18:02] Dr. Jessica Singh: Yeah. For the first time it's like, "Oh, this is what it is," and you can hear it and maybe it makes sense that, hey, this is a thought partnership, trying to help you- Mm-hmm ...with transformation, facilitate that space of growth.

[00:18:12] But it's still hard to concretely understand what that is until you go through it. So Right ...here, here now, and, I appreciate your open-mindedness for this experience. So that being said, I know you have, in terms of the timing of your life right now with all these transitions, can you tell me a little bit more about what it is that you're navigating at this time?

[00:18:36] Dr. Mary: Navigating trying to function and keep myself alive while keeping the baby alive. 

[00:18:45] My husband's always supporting me here. 

[00:18:48] Dr. Jessica Singh: Sure.

[00:18:49] Clare Norman, MCC: Great. So what are you noticing so far?

[00:18:55] Dr. Jessica Singh: I'm definitely doing more talking than the eighty, twenty percent, but I feel like at the first session, sometimes it's warranted.

[00:19:02] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Yeah. And there may be a bit of scope to shorten a little bit. So that last piece that we just listened to from "It's one thing to say this is what coaching is," blah, blah, blah, down to navigating. You maybe could figure out how to do that more succinctly.

[00:19:28] Yeah. What else are you noticing?

[00:19:30] Dr. Jessica Singh: Agree with the succinctness, more of the emphasis on how with coaching every minute really matters. And so the more succinct I can be as a coach, the better it is for the thinker.

[00:19:42] And that's something that also in coach training initially, wasn't the case. You could take your time and not to say that this isn't relaxing, but this is more of like a how can I be more efficient and succinct, and I really think that's just gonna come with practice.

[00:19:57] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Efficient and effective, I think. We're not just trying to rush through it to get to the meat, we are as much as we can, as you said, using a coach approach in every minute that we're working with them. So where can you see examples of places where you might use more of a coach approach?

[00:20:23] Dr. Jessica Singh: I think that part you said that could be trimmed a little bit, and one of the things I've noticed is when I'm listening to it, and I try to think of how could I have said that more effectively or impactfully in a shorter amount of time. I also then come from this space of, wait a second in the moment, I feel like I'm doing... i'm still processing 'cause I- it's not like I'm coming from a script where all of these things are set. And so that processing is what I realize is what's taking the time, and so that effectiveness, I feel like, again, I think it's just practice.

[00:20:57] Clare Norman, MCC: Ah, yeah. So your speaking out loud is almost your way of giving yourself the chance to process, but process out loud kind of thing, and catch up with yourself and with her.

[00:21:10] Dr. Jessica Singh: Yes, I try to do some of that silently 'cause it works both ways, right? You get the silence, the pause.

[00:21:15] Clare Norman, MCC: Yes.

[00:21:16] Dr. Jessica Singh: Then I feel like as soon as I start trying to figure out what question to ask or where to go next, it's like a processing.

[00:21:22] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Yeah. So So here's a tip, and that would be to listen out to the very last thing that they say. I can't remember if we talked about this last time, but to coach based on that very last thing. So for example, her very last thing before you got into the, "Oh yeah, coaching is one thing to talk about," blah, blah, blah. She said, "I guess confidence in this transition and being less fearful and all the mixed emotions I can come with." There's something in there to be explored, and so that could be an opportunity for a coaching question rather than a kind of an explanation. So what might you insert there as a question for her to help her to explore that even further?

[00:22:16] Dr. Jessica Singh: As you're saying it I'm processing this advice. And it resonates so well because if you focus on the last thing, then it's not like I'm beating myself up for not remembering every word beforehand. And this might sound, and maybe I'm overcomplicating it, but figuring out how to ask those effective coaching questions and where to even start. So like in this one, it's the emotions, the confidence, and the transitions. Sometimes emotionally what comes for me is I feel like the person thinking has already gone through some of this in their head, and it's been on their minds, obviously, if it's coming out. And so I think I shifted to an explanation 'cause it was the first session, maybe I'm justifying it. Or sometimes maybe I don't go into reflections on the last thing they said to explore because I feel like in this case, I would still be exploring things that would result in sustain talk to kind of understand more about her situation.

[00:23:15] And then I would go into more trying to identify what is before what you want to be. Maybe this is a bias I'm not aware of, but just because it's so early on, just building that trust, rapport, psychological safety, creating this container where coaching is, it can be very heavy deep work, but also to create a space where it's a little light and forward and positive and hopeful.

[00:23:39] And so I think thinking about those questions about confidence, emotions,

[00:23:45] Clare Norman, MCC: Hmm.

[00:23:45] Dr. Jessica Singh: I think if naturally I went off that last statement, maybe I would have asked her "Can you tell me more about what you're experiencing right now that you would like to shift?"

[00:23:54] Clare Norman, MCC: Hmm.

[00:23:55] Dr. Jessica Singh: Because one of the things I learned from you, especially last time, and I realized I did it a couple places here, was not to just have story questions.

[00:24:03] So for instance, even a check-in, how are you doing right now? Maybe that's not the greatest way to open up a coaching conversation 'cause it can suck up a ton of time and not help the thinker. Yeah. And then for here, the question was, how would you navigate? Or what are you navigating right now? Maybe more effectively would have been, what are you navigating right now that you'd like to address in coaching?

[00:24:25] Clare Norman, MCC: Yes, it could be and given that she's talked quite a bit about emotion in here, confidence, fear, mixed emotions, it could be a combination of: what emotions are you navigating through all of this? Or what more would you like to say about the emotions that you're navigating that we might be working with in coaching? So yeah, I think that both/and approach could work really well at this point.

[00:24:59] Dr. Jessica Singh: I also like the questions because it's not digging up the past, it's staying in the present, and it's naming and acknowledging them. Yes. And so it's really-- I think one of the fears that I'm realizing I had that is being dropped now is that fear of going into a place that might be painful for the thinker of tell me about what makes you feel the lack of confidence or the emotions, and that's not really helpful to them at this stage, and maybe not the role at the beginning. And so asking just to identify and acknowledge is huge.

[00:25:29] Clare Norman, MCC: Yep. Yep. Because chances are she may not have said any of this about the emotions to anybody else before. Maybe to partner, possibly. Maybe to a friend, maybe to her mother. But, hmm, the chance to get really deep into these emotions is very different with a coach who is neutral, who has no vested interest like her partner and her mother would have vested interest in making those emotions go away, making her feel better. Whereas your job, yes, ultimately you're helping her to process those and to make some shifts in her life. But to start with, you're not all about placating and pushing them down. You want her to be able to explore those emotions, 'cause as you said, they're current emotions. It's not digging up emotions from the past. It's not trauma. It's the current emotions, and that's what makes this valid for coaching. Yeah. Great. 

[00:26:40] Dr. Jessica Singh: Somehow when we talk about it, I guess, it's more effective ways, right? Or efficient ways of doing it. As I'm looking at, and we'll continue playing it, somehow it came where she like, "Can you tell me more about what you're navigating?"

[00:26:51] And I'm realizing again that that style of questioning I'm working on shifting. And then she goes into her emotions, and we'll listen to this part. And then one of the things that's very interesting is if I did that tip of focusing on the last thing she said, I might have asked her to explain more. But here I asked her instead, "Can you tell me about your beliefs and values as a person? What's guiding you?" So it shifted a little bit more. It shifted in a different direction, which I'm curious when we listen to it, what your thoughts are.

[00:27:21] Clare Norman, MCC: All right. Well, let's listen in.

[00:27:22] Dr. Jessica Singh: I'll just play from where we left off 'cause it's the next minute or two. 

[00:27:27] Dr. Mary: But just navigating what it's like to have sleep deprivation in the next level, and then also, you know, taking care of myself, taking care of my baby. And then navigating what it's like to try to prepare myself to return to residency, essentially, just like talking with interns, like my co-interns who are really supportive. But there's, I think in my mind, like a perception that I'm still a resident, and I'm not there with my co-residents who are on night shifts and doing lots of extra time in the holidays as well, and I'm getting leave off in the holidays.

[00:28:16] So there's navigating, I think, emotions too of needing to be in two places at once and feeling like, not that I'm perceived as letting my co-residents down, but I feel like I might be letting them down because I'm not there for them when they have a really hard night or day in the hospital. So like navigating the whole structure of schedules, expectations, and then also like the emotions of all the transition. So lots to unpack. 

[00:28:48] Dr. Jessica Singh: Yes, lots of unpacking to do. And one thing that's coming up for me, just listening to all these different situations that are happening for you right now, is to ask you about your beliefs just and values as a person and what's guiding you-- what's been giving you strength and guiding your way?

[00:29:10] Dr. Mary: Ah. Well, I think it's still hard for me to put in words like what are my beliefs ultimately. And , I'm a Christian, and I was raised very much like faith-oriented, so immediately my mind goes to like those types of beliefs. But I think to my-- like my core as a person, my major beliefs are family being a major priority.

[00:29:33] That is why my husband and I decided to be crazy and have a baby at this time when he's a student and I'm an intern. lot of that is very much a belief that it will be okay, that this is something that is a beautiful, wonderful thing and a very big priority to us. So I believe in the value of family being the most important thing in our lives. And then I guess the definition of belief and value, I'm gonna kind of go interchangeably, I suppose. But that part of my identity is 

[00:30:08] being a physician, you know, it's what I've always wanted to be, and it's a service-oriented position. And that the major belief system of mine is that we are meant to serve others and help improve the lives of others around us and improve the world, the contribution to society and everything.

[00:30:27] So I guess all of those beliefs right now are kind of the big things in my mind. They're kind of determining the two roles that I'm in right now, and motherhood and being a physician. I'm sure I have plenty of other beliefs and values and such, but nothing that's like I would say is present in my mind right now in this big transition.

[00:30:50] Clare Norman, MCC: All right. Do you want to stop there? 

[00:30:51] So listening to that again then, what, what are you thinking about that question you asked about her beliefs?

[00:31:00] Dr. Jessica Singh: I think, again, it's very open-ended and might seem out of context. And so she happened to be receptive and was okay going there. I wonder if there's a way to tie it in to what she was speaking before a little bit better. I know I said there's lots of unpacking to do and as listening to this, what's been your beliefs, but I'm wondering if there's a way to do that more effectively.

[00:31:23] Clare Norman, MCC: Mm. Mm. Yeah, 'cause I'm hearing some beliefs in what she had said before as well. So I suspect that's what took you to that question, to help her to get underneath the surface and peel the onion a bit more. Yeah. What are your thoughts about how you might do that in a way that kind of ties it in?

[00:31:47] Dr. Jessica Singh: I think it's interesting that you said that you were hearing things earlier on about her beliefs, because part of me when I was listening back to this, I was like, "Where did that question come from?" I thought it was positive. I thought it really opened up a lot for her. And I was feeling like, was that intuition or just being with her?

[00:32:03] That's how I usually feel like things come. You have more tangibly are hearing her beliefs coming earlier and thinking maybe that's what led you there. And so that's very interesting for me 'cause I wonder if I could see that maybe I will understand more of how I'm generating the questions to maybe tie it in better.

[00:32:20] Clare Norman, MCC: So for example, I may be putting words into her mouth here, but I wonder whether there's a slight amount of guilt in her for letting her colleagues down, for not being there on those night shifts and all that kind of stuff. And so feels like there's some kind of belief in there about what being a good physician or a good colleague is about, for example.

[00:32:48] It's difficult though because we also don't want to assume that there are beliefs embedded in that. Because if we did say something like, "Oh, I'm, I'm hearing some beliefs in there. What beliefs are those?" Mary, might think, "Oh, uh, hmm, what's she saying that I'm not saying?" kind of thing. And you definitely don't want to put people on the back foot in that way. So yeah, I do think your intuition is working here. And so maybe it is simply about shortening the question, and taking out... And the one thing that's coming up for me, just listening to all these different situations that are happening for you right now, is to ask you, take all of that out and go straight for the, "Hmm, so what beliefs and values are guiding you in this whole context?"

[00:33:44] So again, you're taking yourself out as much as you can, but allowing her to keep processing, keep thinking for herself, keep peeling the onion. Yeah.

[00:33:56] Dr. Jessica Singh: I love that. I learned another technique when I was learning coaching. It was with mind-body medicine called interactive guided imagery. And as you guide people through imagery experiences, one of the key things is you're supposed to take yourself out of it. So every question, like it shouldn't have the I, it should be like: What are you seeing?

[00:34:12] What are you feeling? And one of the things I felt like with coaching-- So for instance, this question, a lot of that, what I'm seeing, what I'm hearing is, like that stuff I can pause. If that chatter is going on in my head, I can pause and just let the question come out. But I did wanna ask because I do feel like in so many coach trainings, I've also heard that. That's the kind of reflection style. What I'm hearing is, what I'm seeing is this correct? I don't really agree with saying what I am because that's putting ourselves into the coaching equation, and it's not about us.

[00:34:43] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah, exactly. It's not about us, and it's not about what we've seen, it's about what they're seeing. They may notice something very different if we ask them, "What are you noticing as you're talking out loud"? It may be that we have noticed something that they haven't noticed themselves, in which case we might add that after they've made their own noticing.

[00:35:05] But generally, what they're noticing is far more important than what we notice, I would say. The idea of putting on the back end of it, "Is that correct?" I mean, I get why that question might be asked, is to give them a chance to say, "No, it's not." But what it's doing is putting them in a position to tell you that you're not correct, and people don't like telling a coach that you're not correct.

[00:35:34] So it puts them in a very awkward position to stroke you. And this isn't about stroking you at all. This is all about them, as you've said. Yeah. So if you've got that strategy to take the I's out, then use it. Definitely use it. It sounds like that will stand you in good stead. Yeah.

[00:35:54] Dr. Jessica Singh: Yeah, I'm gonna start doing that, I think. And the other part of me, and this might sound simple, but part of mentoring is to ask those questions that seem simple, is part of me is like, Well, does it matter if my questions are more simple? And my text is shorter if the person gets a transformation at the end of the day. What does it matter?

[00:36:15] But the click that's happening as we're talking is by asking more simple questions, they get more time to just reflect on themselves- Yes ... rather than being distracted by words that aren't serving them.

[00:36:27] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. You talked earlier about you trying to process their stuff. If you have quite a long piece, they're having to process what you've just said, and that can take them somewhere completely different to where they had been headed. So yeah, less is definitely more in coaching, and that's a good thing.

[00:36:47] We're adding far more value by asking shorter, pithier questions. Yeah.

[00:36:54] Dr. Jessica Singh: The other thing that's coming to me when you were saying take the "I" out of it, and I agree with it, I'll start working towards that, is I guess when you do ask that question too, is what I'm hearing is it could maybe even be perceived as judgment. 'Cause like you said, you put the thinker in a place of saying yes, you're correct or no.

[00:37:11] And it's like how you feel like you're interpreting the situation versus just if you give a reflection without the "I", they can agree or disagree and move wherever they wanna go.

[00:37:20] Clare Norman, MCC: Yes. Yeah. And you could still say, Feel free to disagree with this, blah, whatever the blah is, the noticing but you've given them that option at the beginning or at the end of that. Sometimes I say, "Feel free to say yes, no, or counteroffer," so that they know that they've got the opportunity. It is all in their hands to push back on anything that you have said and not to take it.

[00:37:49] Just because you're an experienced coach doesn't mean that you know everything about everything in the world, and certainly not about them. They know far more about themselves than you do. So that's another way that you can do that as well. 

[00:38:01] Yeah. 

[00:38:02] Dr. Jessica Singh: So one step is removing myself out of it. The second part that I had a question, was when we give reflections, I realize I'm combining simple reflections with a question, and I don't know if those simple, like acknowledging kind of in broad overview what she said, I don't know if it's providing value or not, and just to focus on the question.

[00:38:24] Clare Norman, MCC: Is this the question when you think about your beliefs, your spirituality, f-faith, belief, et cetera? Mm-hmm. How ideally do you envision yourself navigating through not only these transitions, but just your journey as a physician?

[00:38:43] I think that that is bringing together what you've heard with a question about the ideal state that she wants. So yes, this feels like a good example of building trust and safety with her because she knows that you've listened and you've heard those things, and that you've been fully present as well.

[00:39:07] So you've got those two competencies showing up. And listening, so competency six is showing up, and then you've got a competency seven in the question about how do you envision yourself navigating, blah, blah, blah. So yeah, in that combo, you've actually hit four different competencies.

[00:39:31] So yeah, that's goodness. 

[00:39:32] Dr. Jessica Singh: It's nice to know it's kind of, you know, it just comes from inside, but it's also interesting 'cause the one right before that with yes, the unpacking to do and one thing that's coming up for me, I will work on completely editing and changing those because that could be done better.

[00:39:47] Clare Norman, MCC: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:39:51] Dr. Jessica Singh: Thank you.

[00:39:51] Clare Norman, MCC: So Jessica, we've got about ten minutes left to work together. Which part would you most like us to listen into?

[00:39:58] Dr. Jessica Singh: I think the ending would be nice because this one I think was more guided rather than co-partnering. And so I think starting at 38 minutes. What stood out to you most from this conversation today? Which I don't know if that's the most effective way of asking, because I realize what stood out to you most is different than asking what insights did you gain from this conversation or what surprised you, if anything.

[00:40:22] And so sometimes I just ask, what's your takeaway?

[00:40:27] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah, and any of those can be good, and sometimes there may need to be a build on an-any one of those as well to, again, to peel the onion even at this ending point. So although you may not feel it was the ideal, actually y-you can still follow it up.

[00:40:45] Dr. Jessica Singh: So I asked her about her takeaway. That was about at forty minutes and thirty seconds.

[00:40:50] Clare Norman, MCC: Okay.

[00:40:51] Dr. Mary: And I'm hearing a lot of hope and even confidence when you said, "I will find my own way." Yeah. And I feel like that is a different feeling than what I had at the beginning of the session. Appreciate that. Thank you. 

[00:41:05] Dr. Jessica Singh: Um, may I ask just to bring it in full circle.

[00:41:09] Mm-hmm. Um, do, do you feel that feeling anywhere in your body? 

[00:41:14] Dr. Mary: Yeah, that's an interesting question. Out of my chest, I guess I'd say feeling a little lighter on my shoulders is quite literally what it feels right now. 

[00:41:26] Dr. Jessica Singh: Yeah. And so I know obviously with residency schedules get busy, so if you'd like, we can continue to meet and to coach as your schedule allows it.

[00:41:38] Mm-hmm. And so between now and next time, what do you think would be most useful for you? 

[00:41:47] Dr. Mary: Probably journaling, I feel like would be a good way to continue to help me do some self-talk and reflect and live through the feelings. Not necessarily like find an answer to the whole dilemma of balance, but journaling as well as getting that book that I mentioned that is focused on women being physicians and mothers at the same time and getting some insights from that. And maybe reaching out more to my co-residents, kinda like I talked about, who've already had babies, and any questions that I have. I've already asked a few questions about, like, schedules with breast pumping and all those things. But any other questions that I have, reaching out to my resources and not being afraid to use those.

[00:42:37] Dr. Jessica Singh: And how would you like to... how do you envision staying accountable to yourself? 

[00:42:44] Dr. Mary: Hmm. Well, I will tell my husband my plan. "Hey, I'm gonna get this book, and I'm gonna journal maybe at least once, maybe more, but I'll say at least once for now, so I don't overcommit myself to not fulfilling that commitment. 

[00:43:07] But yeah, I'll tell my husband. 

[00:43:09] Dr. Jessica Singh: Sure. And is there a time that you'd like to set the amount of journaling time for, even though it's just once maybe between now and next time. Mm-hmm. Would you like to set a time goal for yourself, like, even if it's just five?

[00:43:21] Dr. Mary: Minutes? Yeah. Five minutes, and we'll say, like, a goal of journaling on Sunday 'cause that's traditionally, I think, when I've journaled the most previously.

[00:43:30] That's a good midway point, I suppose. 

[00:43:32] Dr. Jessica Singh: Sure. And then had mentioned about getting that book and reaching out to your colleagues. 

[00:43:37] Dr. Mary: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:39] Dr. Jessica Singh: May I ask you also between now and the next time, so obviously we had just uncovered a lot in this session. You had talked about how so beautifully, so simply said at the end how, "I didn't realize my question was how do I be a mom and a physician at the same time?"

[00:43:54] Mm-hmm. And so for our next session, if something comes up, obviously it's for you to explore whatever is most urgent. But if you'd like to prepare by thinking about, in reflection of our conversation today, whether it's the time management or just some examples or having that time to sleep is import- whichever one of these areas you feel is important, whether or not they were mentioned today, if you'd like, we can take a deep dive and really...

[00:44:19] Today was our first session together- Mm-hmm ... so we really get a holistic picture. And so we can continue doing a holistic discussion next time if you'd like, and we can also start to explore a topic more deeply. Mm-hmm. And so if you'd like to think of what area you'd like to exploring, then we can also do that next time.

[00:44:37] Dr. Mary: Sure. I'll think on it. Thank you. 

[00:44:40] Dr. Jessica Singh: Sure. And is there a way you'd like to check in at... If it's okay, I'm happy to check in with you by email and see how you're doing between now and next time, if you would find something like that valuable. 

[00:44:51] Dr. Mary: Yeah, sure. Email or text even. I can do it on my phone. Either is perfect.

[00:44:56] Dr. Jessica Singh: Sure. And I know you have a lot of resources already, or it sounds like you have that book

[00:45:01] you're getting your colleagues. 

[00:45:02] Clare Norman, MCC: Stop there then.

[00:45:03] Dr. Jessica Singh: Sure.

[00:45:04] Clare Norman, MCC: So what are you noticing in this section then?

[00:45:07] Dr. Jessica Singh: Again, the same pattern at the end about that could have been shortened a lot. 

[00:45:12] And, I could have asked her more of like coach-like, what would be most valuable to you? I felt maybe I went more into the suggestion part, which is not as coach-like because it was our first session, but maybe I shouldn't have the inception not to do the coach-like way, even if this is the first time.

[00:45:31] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Uh, trust them. Trust that they can answer those questions like, how long do you want to journal for? For example. You don't need to suggest five minutes 'cause she's gonna latch onto that five minutes, give herself, the excuse to only do five minutes when actually she might have been about to say half an hour.

[00:45:51] You don't know that until you offered that. So yes, think about how you can be more succinct and more coach-like in, in that final piece.

[00:46:03] Dr. Jessica Singh: It's the same thing also with the topics. I should have just left it as topics. And, and listening to this, we did explore a topic already deeply. And so it almost is like I don't wanna not value what we did. It was a holistic discussion of a deep topic. And so I think finding a way to ask more effectively to come up with a topic before the coaching session, 'cause often I know that happens sometimes, is you meet someone and it's like, "I tried to think of a topic today, but I couldn't think of anything," especially when they're new to coaching.

[00:46:34] And so for me, it's not to give examples of topics because it's up to them.

[00:46:38] Clare Norman, MCC: Yes, absolutely. And this is where-- So you said at the beginning about perhaps having something in between sessions.

[00:46:48] Dr. Jessica Singh: So it's interesting with the people that I'm coaching now, I kinda tell them like just any topic you'd like to think of before a session, and I also give a suggestion at the end for five minutes if you can block off your schedule, if you have any notes you'd like to write or just something to reflect on, you're welcome to, because I learned from a very wise coach that note-taking should be up to the thinker if they want to. And I have not. So some people fall into where they are, like, they catch on really quickly, and they come in whole, wise, resourceful with the topic ready. But I still do have a few that come in not knowing, even though it's several sessions in.

[00:47:24] And so I think, like you had mentioned I need to think of two or three questions to get them thinking at least about the next one.

[00:47:31] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. So they know that the ball is in their court. Definitely. Yeah. Great.

[00:47:38] Dr. Jessica Singh: Great. May I ask you, 'cause I know you have so many resources for coaches, and I'm just trying to think of the wording right now. Sometimes I'll say, "Think of a topic you'd like to explore," but then it's more of the... I don't wanna say, "Think of a problem you're having," 'cause it's not necessarily a problem.

[00:47:55] I don't wanna have a negative judgment on it. But some of the other ways I phrase it is, "Think of a situation in your life that you'd like a shift in."

[00:48:02] Clare Norman, MCC: Nice.

[00:48:03] Dr. Jessica Singh: And maybe those questions are enough to prompt a thinker.

[00:48:06] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. I sometimes use the word opportunity. What opportunities are there for us to spend some time thinking about? And then it is more positive rather than negative. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:22] Dr. Jessica Singh: Thank you so much. This was really helpful and such a gift.

[00:48:25] Clare Norman, MCC: You are so welcome. What are you going to be practicing in between now and the next time we get together?

[00:48:33] Dr. Jessica Singh: A bit of humility, a lot of learning and letting go. I think just raising the awareness of these patterns, so taking the I out of the equation is something tangible, and working on having more shorter questions rather than processing out loud.

[00:48:51] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Great. Those are two good things to be practicing and seeing what difference it makes. Perfect. Well, it's been lovely to work with you again, and I hope your listeners have got lots of great insights into how coaching works and how we do our work together. So thank you so much.

[00:49:14] Dr. Jessica Singh: Thank you for listening to the Holistic Physician Coaching Podcast. This podcast is dedicated to making coaching more accessible and to support both physicians and those who coach them. Subscribe to access exclusive subscriber-only episodes, including physician coaching sessions, coaching debriefs, and coach mentoring sessions that offer valuable insights for professional development for coaches.

[00:49:44] Your support helps sustain this work. Subscribe and leave a thoughtful review at www .holistic physician coaching podcast .com. Sending you warmth and light.