[00:00:00] Dr. Jessica Singh: Welcome to the Holistic Physician Coaching Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Jessica Singh. This podcast explores physician health, wellbeing, and fulfillment, embracing all aspects of the human experience. Just as in medicine where a single interaction can transform a life, this podcast is grounded on the belief that each coaching conversation has the power to inspire, heal, and bring about meaningful change. 

[00:00:35] Dr. Amna Shabbir is a dual board certified physician with advanced training and integrative wellbeing, leadership development and behavior change science. Trained at Duke University and the Cleveland Clinic, she spent over a decade caring for individuals with complex chronic conditions across outpatient clinics, hospital systems, and rehabilitation facilities.

[00:01:01] A Duke certified integrative Wellness Coach and National Board Certified Health and Wellness coach, Dr. Shabbir blends medical expertise with evidenced-based coaching to help high achievers and organizations optimize well-being, redefine success, and create sustainable cultures of thriving. She is the founder and CEO of the Early Career Physicians Institute and Success Curated.

[00:01:29] An ambassador for the Dr. Lorna Breen Heroes Foundation and a TEDx speaker where she delivered her talk "Perfectionism Has a Solution: It's Not What You Think." In her widely recognized podcast, Success Reimagined with Amna Shabbir, MD ranked in the top 5% globally, she explores the crossroads of ambition and wellness, sparking transformative conversations that inspire courage and change. Beyond her professional pursuits, Dr. Shabbir proudly embraces her most meaningful title, Super Mom of Two Young Girls. Welcome.

[00:02:07] Dr. Amna Shabbir: Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Singh, for that very kind introduction.

[00:02:11] Dr. Jessica Singh: It is such an honor to have you here and I'd love to just start and begin by asking you holistically if you could share just some of the key events in your life that got you to where you are today. Obviously not just in the career but in life.

[00:02:25] Dr. Amna Shabbir: I think that is such a interesting and beautiful question. As I truly step back to answer it, I think there have been multiple threads in the person that I have become from navigating cultural identity, which was closely tied to high expectations and perfectionism, which then led to everything else, whether it was good, whether it was bad.

[00:02:48] So my experiences with burnout, moral injury, my experiences with motherhood, and just stepping out and looking back at how we survived the pandemic as a whole and my experience during that time as well as physical health challenges. So when you ask that question and I look back, I think for me it is a combination of joy and adversity, which has shaped me to become the person that I am.

[00:03:15] I am grateful for everything, including regrets 'cause it's been interesting. Everything has led up to this point and I'm very happy to be here.

[00:03:25] Dr. Jessica Singh: This is so special too because obviously you've done so much work and such a wonderful career and so excited for the journey where life takes you. But this conversation, I feel really honored to have this gift with you to discuss this through the lens of motherhood. It's not a conversation that we often have, and so I'm really looking forward to this for sharing and also to learn from you.

[00:03:48] Dr. Amna Shabbir: Thank you.

[00:03:50] Dr. Jessica Singh: So I'd love to ask you, can you share more about the work you're doing now and your experience as a mom?

[00:03:57] Dr. Amna Shabbir: The work that I'm doing right now involves tapping into a lot of uncertainty and creativity. It's entrepreneurship. Stepping away from the traditional model of medicine into entrepreneurship while also being a mother has been interesting. And I am really excited to talk about everything through the lens of motherhood because I've never had this very specific conversation.

[00:04:17] I know that's what I mentioned right before we pressed record. It is exciting. It is terrifying. It is also this recognition, where am I taking the wrongs, or wrongs is a very strong word, but where am I taking the workaholism that I learned, the toxic achievement that I learned in medicine, and then superimposing that into motherhood?

[00:04:42] Where is my perfectionism that I have cultivated so intentionally and now I talk about stepping away from it and has brought me over here? So just being a lot of like mindfulness of what brought me to this point of my life, and like how can I truly and actively pause and look at some of those things and not just continue down that road.

[00:05:03] And to be honest, while I had addressed burnout and moral injury in a variety of ways, as I transitioned into my entrepreneurial journey, I realized that wow, there is this deep thread of perfectionism and workaholism and imposturism that I cannot get rid of. And I continue to take that on. And as I think of myself constantly, like a project, the energy that I'll exude for the people around me, including the young humans that I care for, is not very conducive.

[00:05:32] And so I think it was pausing and reflecting over and over again to having this recognition. And who knows what I'll find out tomorrow, but it's interesting.

[00:05:42] Dr. Jessica Singh: And self-awareness must be an interesting mirror. To like look at yourself through that mirror and not only realize like the impact of our actions on ourselves, but then like you said, on those little humans that you care for and love.

[00:05:56] Dr. Amna Shabbir: Absolutely. And there's so much. I think that motherhood brings a lot of very interesting emotions in me. Maybe I am not as terrified when I'm doing other aspects of my life. You know how I'm showing up in spaces and places, but motherhood is extremely terrifying. And it is also extremely guilt-inducing and it brings all these like, it's not all negative emotions, but I'm just very honestly sharing, it brings about guilt and shame and like making the wrong decision. They definitely don't come with a manual and like what works for one child is not gonna work for another child.

[00:06:32] And this consistent feeling of what am I going to transfer to them that is not productive? So you're constantly moving, but on the other end there's also a lot of gratitude and children will point things out to you. I thought I was being very self-compassionate til' my own child pointed out that no, I was not.

[00:06:50] And so it's a constant balancing act, but not in the way of like work-life balance; in the way that you are constantly navigating, being present versus being afraid and all the time.

[00:07:02] Dr. Jessica Singh: All these cognitive processes that you're aware of and obviously this culture of workaholism, which so lovely, that seed gets planted in medicine. Would you mind just sharing what your situation was when you first became pregnant? Where were you in your career, and how did you even feel about being a mom before you became one?

[00:07:22] Dr. Amna Shabbir: How I felt about being a mother. So I'm really glad the one thing I never did was judge other parents ever. I'm so glad because if I would have looked back now, I would've completely called myself a fool. And I'm so glad that I never did that, and I don't do it now. I always caution people, I'm giving nobody parenting advice. I will never call myself a parenting expert. So that's one. That's how I felt about motherhood. It just felt very dis- autonomous in a way, but joyful. So I think that's really what my initial perceptions were. When I first stepped into this journey, I was a second year resident and that was my first pregnancy.

[00:08:02] And when I found out I was expecting, I just thought how awful I felt was just part of you're a resident, you wake up, you throw up, you go to the floors, like, that's it. And so I didn't even check for the longest time ever. And then fast forward, when I did find out, I also in parallel received the news that I could potentially have a really serious health issue.

[00:08:25] So the news was handed to me in a 24-hour period, which was really challenging to process but looking back, that was a really scary time because what I had was a site-threatening issue. I was at Cleveland Clinic and I will always be grateful for my residency training and for the institute that I was in.

[00:08:46] It does provide world class care. I had a very supportive program director. Shout out to Dr. Abby Spencer. She's amazing. And I had great chief residents and I had amazing colleagues and peers. A time in my life that could have been very traumatic and stressful, because I was in a well-supported residency program, as a new second year resident, you're navigating so much, you're taking care of yourself and you're taking care of those new interns. So that was a lot, but because I had systems in place, I had the opportunity to go to all my medical appointments. They were a lot. And I also had the opportunity to show up the best way I could, and there was no shame or guilting me.

[00:09:31] They could see that I was doing that a lot to myself anyways, which was a whole interesting phenomena. But I cannot imagine that if I had been in a toxic residency program, what it would've done to me on a very physiological level. So I am grateful that I was well supported. I didn't have even like financial concerns because that just goes to talk about the institute itself. So I'm grateful, and my daughter is now nine years old. I'm very, very happy about that entire process. But there was a lot that I had to manage and then I was not prepared for how the birth went. And I was not prepared. And I was actually determined to be joyful, but I ended up having postpartum depression. And then the perfectionist in me was really struggling because there is a lot of layers to that. Not just medicine, but also cultural conditioning. I just felt really ungrateful for having postpartum depression because I have seen what so many other humans have to go through in their fertility journeys. And so I was afraid to even say anything that I was so intensely dysphoric and yeah, I'll pause there.

[00:10:44] Dr. Jessica Singh: I was going to just say, let's pause for a moment. I just wanted to pause and just acknowledge everything that you've shared and your strength and vulnerability and courage. Obviously I know it brings up so much, even though all this time has passed.

[00:10:59] Dr. Amna Shabbir: It really does. It is an interesting experience. And so that was the first time. So when my second daughter was coming around, I was an early career physician and I was like, determined that, "okay, this is going to be better." Health-wise, I had really worked on myself. I was well plugged in terms of being in a place where, again, I had resources. So many humans are going through this and they're in healthcare deserts, right? I was, again, well plugged in. I was so determined that I will not get postpartum depression again, and I'm an attending. Big surprise! The birth plans again, did not go as as I had intended, and I again got postpartum depression and it was so much worse the second time. And I felt like such a failure.

[00:11:49] I lied on my PHQ-9s. I you was so afraid like oh my goodness! What does speaking the truth about my mental health at this time mean for all the different identities that I hold? Whether that is a physician, my credibility as a physician, whether that is being a mother to like, I should have figured this out by now. This is the second time. To then what does this mean for my identity as a South Asian woman. Again, you just smile and you go do the work. And that's what I did.

[00:12:23] I tried to solve my postpartum depression by overworking, and really the perfectionism part of me, the perfectionistic strivings, created this intense fear that I'm going to be found out as a fraud, as a deficient person who does not belong here, because all I saw around me were people who were doing it all. Like I have six kids. I'm doing great. What's wrong with you? Everyone around me was putting up this face. Like I literally did not see anybody who was in sort of a similar social, cultural career context who was also struggling at that time. I was also not a part of like there some amazing Facebook groups that are supportive. I was not a part of any of that, and so this entire time I was really struggling and I didn't ask for help actively, and I lied over and over again til' I went to see my primary care physician a couple of months later, and she looked at me. She knew me from before, and then she just prescribed Lexapro and it never filled it. Well it as I slowly, slowly start feeling worse and worse. And so I filled the Lexapro. It sat on my nightstand for such a long time. And then there was a really low moment. A moment where I actually wanted to end things. And I've, despite going off mute and talking about my journey for the past two years, this is the first year after stepping on the TEDx stage that I actively started talking about that moment because I was, I still continued to carry all that fear.

[00:14:03] This is gonna go on my license. This is what we think we're struggling and all I'm thinking in that moment is how is this going to look to the outside world. It is the classic performance-based identity, which taps into a lot of perfectionism. While I'm so glad that I did go after that moment, you know, I'm okay. I'm here. It's kind of difficult to talk about it. But I went and I picked up that bottle of Lexapro and I took up my first tablet. And in a recent talk I was on stage and I truly felt the words I shared the first time that it was 10 milligrams of Lexapro that felt like 10 tons, that heavy in my hands, and I was holding that first pill.

[00:14:47] And it was a moment of intense courage, I would say, but it didn't look pretty. In our minds I don't know what courage looks like. I was crying. I did not look great. And it felt so heavy and I felt like my entire existence was in flux in that moment. Like "this is how much of a massive failure you are Amna, that it has come to pharmacotherapy to make you feel better that you can function." If I was to keep my conversation with myself PG, that's how I would share it. And I took that first pill. And I'm so glad that I did that. I am so grateful that I'm here and I'm so grateful that I get to talk about it now. And it was a journey that you unlock new layers of confidence and courage within yourself to even talk about it.

[00:15:40] I'm glad I did that. And I know I'm not the only one. As I tell this story. I know that there are many people who are going through this similar journey in context of motherhood. And when I shared it, in written form my postpartum depression, not that how bad it had gotten, so many humans reached out to me in DMs, and that was really interesting.

[00:16:06] People were pouring in DMS because everybody was afraid. Like if you actually posted and shared like, oh, me too. Like I'm struggling, or my spouse is struggling. So that was really helpful. Also, I mean, talk about brown identity, like I did not share this with my parents. They had no clue that I was going through this.

[00:16:24] There were maybe five or less than five people who knew I was going through, my husband being one of them. And once the article published, I sent that to my dad in a message. Oh FYI. And he, and he was kind and supportive afterwards. But it was really interesting about the fear and like the impression management of how things should look versus how you truly feel.

[00:16:50] And then okay, I took the Lexapro, but I was like, "okay, you better just take it just enough time that you feel better, you get off of it so you don't have to talk about it to anybody else." And I could have probably taken it for longer. But that's what I did. The instance, I felt just a little bit better I started my taper and I got off of it. But I'm grateful for that moment. I'm grateful that I took it. I'm grateful that I feel better now.

[00:17:14] I'm not taking for psychotherapy at this moment, but if I ever have to, I will do it in a heartbeat. This is not a question anymore, and I would encourage anybody who's listening right now and questioning, depending on how you feel, where you're at, don't be afraid to ask for help. It is critical. It is critical. We were not meant to do any of this alone, and that is like one thing that comes up over and over again as I've tried to cultivate self-compassion is like me in my bedroom holding that pill of Lexapro, questioning my worth over and over again as a human being and beating myself up. I don't want anyone to feel the way I felt in that moment. And I guess that's what I'm trying to say.

[00:18:03] Dr. Jessica Singh: I have goosebumps just feeling your heart and everything that you went through, and I can't even imagine what that was like for you, whether it was the first time in residency or the second time later on as an attending. Because it's always a focus on patients first, do what you need to do and there's so much involved. And then you have all these other identities and roles like you mentioned as a wife, as a daughter, as a physician, as everything in your community that you are. And then to go through something like that. I really, really appreciate that message of to get help, and it sounds like it was such an empowering process for you, but also a lot of like surrender and humility.

[00:18:39] Dr. Amna Shabbir: Absolutely. Oh my goodness. Those are great words. There's nothing that prepares you really, truly. You can read all the books that you want, but nothing truly prepares you for motherhood. And as I talk about self-compassion, I also want to just, I think compassion and surrender would be such a great way for us to look at each other as well.

[00:19:00] And women in all roles, whether they are mothers or not mothers, whatever woman is on at the phase of their life, the journey that they're on, it's not easy. And so there's so much judgment and bias and shaming. And could we just at least bring awareness to that in our own minds? Like I am totally judging this other human for some choice that they have made in life.

[00:19:28] I think that creating non-judgmental awareness is one of the highest form of self-compassion and compassion towards others. And if you were all to just hold mindfulness and surrender for a minute, what a powerful way to generate just kindness all around. I've had people shame me for many decisions that I made in motherhood. And I think that they added in a moment where I was already beating myself up, that there were other people, there were being well-meaning they were giving me well-meaning advice that I did not ask for. They were shoving it at me not knowing I'm struggling so much mentally. And so I never ask, like I never give advice. I only try to ask other humans, like how can I help them when they're entering motherhood or in that postpartum period. An example would be like, I really struggled with breastfeeding. Like when I say struggle, we talk struggle. And when we talk about, you know, lactation consultants do all the things on earth, like it was a struggle both times for different reasons. And I am a smart, driven, competent, resourceful woman. You bet I tried my best and now I can say this, so many years down the road with conviction, but when I was so like sleep deprived, working full-time in primary care, having postpartum depression, I did not need the judgment that other people were giving me.

[00:21:00] I still exclusively pumped for as long as I could. I tried to do the best I could, but I just felt so diminished and so judged by other humans. And I also have so much compassion towards them because I am sure there was somebody else who did this to them. To have that level of like moral conviction that what you are doing is wrong and what I am doing is the right way to parent and mother.

[00:21:27] Girl, there must be something that has happened to you, is what I would say. And, and that's how I hold compassion for them.

[00:21:33] I really don't wanna stay in the space of resentment, but I will also not gaslight myself because there was this big agenda, and that was a really big part of me being so deep and dark into postpartum depression and inadequacy. Like "this is something natural that happens to you. And I can't do this. Why can't you do this? Amna? Why can't you do this when everyone around you is doing it just fine." That's how, like I beat myself up so much in that moment on this one specific element and aspect of motherhood. And believe me, I was trying. So for anybody listening who is not aware of the way that they're engaging in mom shaming, maybe it's also the tons of reels that you've sent some other person, uh, with the reel is shrouded in advice when you're sending them Instagram reels and TikTok reels on like motherhood and parenting. Have you paused to ask the person what they need? What would actually be helpful? I think that's a great way to stop our trauma transfer when it comes to motherhood.

[00:22:39] And then also a way to create awareness surrounding the judgment that we have towards women in medicine, towards working women, towards stay at home moms. I don't care who you are, but as a woman, everyone has their own layer of questions that they have to answer and shame and guilt and cultural expectations that they have to deal with. I'm giving specific examples to my culture 'cause I don't pretend to know everybody else's, but yeah, it could be, just take a breath and just step away.

[00:23:16] Dr. Jessica Singh: So powerful. Just taking a breath. It's so interesting because for physicians, you're expected to be that expert, to be in that fixing and advice role. And when we do that to each other, like you mentioned, there's no discernment first of all, or the awareness of the discernment of when it's appropriate or not.

[00:23:34] And like you said, in terms of that trauma or just treating with kindness, it's just meeting someone, what they're at. Like you had said, what do you need right now? Or could someone just listen to you with without judging you? And having that psychological safety actually happen by not giving advice, which could be triggering.

[00:23:51] Dr. Amna Shabbir: A hundred percent.

[00:23:53] Dr. Jessica Singh: So obviously I can't even imagine. I like have a, a visual image of you kind of carrying a boulder, a few boulders on your shoulders, climbing up a mountain. The other thing that is interesting, I'd love to know more about how your experience was is maternity leave happens and you come back to work and then people are just right back to business.

[00:24:12] And it's just like something major has shifted and priority shift. And like you said, there's no book that can prepare you. There are also many, many, many physicians who once they experience motherhood and childbirth, they feel like it's too early to leave their kids at home or maybe their priorities in life have shifted.

[00:24:32] And so it's interesting because I don't think a lot of conversations like that happen when someone returns back to work after maternity leave. 'Cause everything you think about like just career planning, life goals, it all shifts and there's nothing to prepare you. And I'm curious as to what that was like for you.

[00:24:50] Dr. Amna Shabbir: I absolutely agree with that. There is nothing that can prepare you. The first time I was a resident, I still remember when I went back on my first MICU shift, which was I had my maternity leave, I had a little bit, I believe a week or a week and a half of research and then straight to MICU nights.

[00:25:08] So I'm in the ICU at night and I call my husband sobbing from a bathroom that I can't do this. I really, I just can't do this. I am missing you guys. I wanna come home. I had a c-section. I still feel like my scar is hurting. What he said in that moment really carried a lot of weight for me, and that's a similar message that I've listened of support. And that was, he sent me a selfie of him and my daughter and then he said, "We're fine and we're not quitters. Don't come home. Do your shift." And he's very much like, you know, on point with that stuff. But if he had also been like, I guess this is it. Come on home now. And so I think in that moment when I was sobbing in the bathroom, that's what I needed to hear and it helped reground me in a positive way.

[00:25:55] The tone, the way the text was sent. 'Cause you know, if this had been sent in a different way, the context really matters. I could have been angry. I'm like, no, I'm just done with this. It was a moment of recommitting every day that I wanna be a doctor, I wanna finish my training. I love taking care of my patients. I love this and so I wanna finish my training. It was a question that I had to ask myself and a recommitment pretty much on a daily basis after entering motherhood. So that was hard. But on the other end, I feel like in a strange way, because I was so supported overall, I was able to navigate the first episode of postpartum depression better, or maybe I hid it under overworking because even with the, all the support systems, being a resident is being a resident.

[00:26:41] So, I don't know what a good way to piece that apart would be, but I did do better overall when it was my first time around. The second time around, I was looked at somebody who had more choice as an attending. As an early career attending, I had more choice. And everybody was like, "what? It's her decision. It's no longer like you're a resident. I need to put things in place for you. You have things in place for yourself. Yeah, you are going, it's your choice." And then every day I was like, "am I doing the right thing?" And I feel like I don't get to hear dad guilt quite a bit, but we get to hear mom guilt quite a bit, right?

[00:27:20] So, things that I was missing and so I did decrease my FTE, which helped me. It helped me stay calmer. Taking the medication helped me. Going for coaching and counseling helped me in that moment, but I needed a lot of layers for help. But yeah, the day you walk back into the clinic, the settings that you practice in wherever you're at, you will, depending on how nice your colleagues are, like I had such... one of my most amazing colleagues, Sarah Youngblood, she's a nurse practitioner. She had left this cute little mug that just said, keep the tiny humans alive. And then she had a card next to it. That was such a thoughtful gesture from Sarah that just helped me get through that day.

[00:28:07] At large though, because again, it's business as usual, right? And I think part of that is I get it, 'cause everyone else around me, I get it, they're busy, but something shifts in you internally and it's hard. And in that moment I wish I had been more patient with myself as well. Like I was also... whoop! " We're back. Why does your body still hurt? Oh my God, why do you have to go pump? Why do you have to do all of this," blah, blah, blah. So even with my own self, I was like, okay, I am back. Dr. Shabbir needs to look perfect the first day she's back postpartum. And that was harder. And so if I could have been more patient with myself, it would've been helpful.

[00:28:49] But when we step back, and even in the clients that I've coached, we have had to ask for some really basic things that it is ridiculous. Like the fact that you have to pay back you know, RVU loss for taking time out for pumping, problems with, okay, if you're pumping in clinical settings, that's not okay, or, well, what are we supposed to do then?

[00:29:13] And so there have been in the clients that I've worked with, a lot of really ridiculous things that we have advocated for and thankfully been able to change. But also recognizing that in those moments, a lot of times women physicians are like, again, questioning themselves like, well, I don't wanna be an inconvenience.

[00:29:31] Excuse me. You are not being an inconvenience. This is literally workplace accommodation that needs to be in place for you. A lot of amazing physicians that just walk into spaces and all clinicians, like, whether it's APPs, whether it's nurses, any member of the healthcare team, everyone deserves to be supported as much as they're supporting their patients.

[00:29:54] And so in those moments, instead of questioning yourself, know your concern is valid and you have to advocate for yourself. So I think that there is this huge part. And another thing I will add to the above, Dr. Singh, is recognizing it's okay to be flexible at this point. So when I dropped my FT I was still a full-time employee, but just dropping my FTE couple of notches, I felt like such a colossal failure again, like, okay, this is how it starts. And so in my mind, there was a very rigid way that you were the perfect doctor and there was no room in the middle for anything else. I'm thinking if I should say this on air. I'll go ahead and say it. It saddens me to say this, and this happened after becoming an attending,

[00:30:40] I went back for a fellowship after four years in geriatrics, and this was at the second year of the pandemic. The daycare kept shutting down again and again. We were struggling with childcare in terms of nannies, sitters, all the things, and so that's a huge separate bucket of like, where is my village? Who is my support system?

[00:31:05] And I remember being in a lecture and getting called from the daycare that, you know, oops, we're back in quarantine for three weeks. Figure it out. Meanwhile, we're both working. My husband's building his business at that time. He's super busy. I am busy. I'm a fellow again now, which was interesting. And I thought, wow, my kids are such a nuisance. My children are a nuisance right now. And I've written an article to my own self and I never sent it anywhere, which was that title, that actual thought that I had because of lack of support and also this fear like what's the fault of the other fellows that are gonna have to cover for me?

[00:31:42] These are all things that we think because we're actual human beings and we wanna be as present. Like I always wanna be that person for my team. I did the most amount of respiratory care unit shifts when the pandemic happened because my other colleague was expecting, some of the attendings in my practice there were older adults, and I was like, I will do all of this for you. Meanwhile, both my kids were toddlers at that time. So yeah, the very real fear of bringing it home to my own family, but I was like, well, that's what you do. You show up for your team. And so in those moments, I felt that motherhood and medicine it was really hard to create those spaces of coexistence and feel like you're being excellent in both spaces. So I may not have the answers to all of this, but I at least openly sharing about what was happening in my mind. I want to normalize it for you and it, this is a very shameful thought when I look back at that moment where I thought like, wow, my kids are such a nuisance because we have to pretend both things right.

[00:32:40] My role in medicine needs to pretend that I don't have children. And my role as a mother is this understanding that, yeah, she works. Like that's just one part of it, but she also has to do all of these other things.

[00:32:56] Dr. Jessica Singh: Your honesty goes straight to the heart. It's amazing 'cause you know, this country just looking at how we live compared to the rest of the world, despite all the brokenness of our system, it's still one of the richest places to live in our access to care. And I'll just flat out say that we are one of the poorest healthcare systems, especially with respect to women's health and like embracing the humanity of the experience. Because so many things you had acknowledged, like even with the clients you coach about things you had to advocate for. The postpartum leave, maybe six weeks, maybe eight weeks maybe 10 or 12 and some still go back after two. I know you've seen it. I've seen it where colleagues go back two weeks after C-section. And that's exactly the time when all these physiological changes are happening. The highest risk it just after pregnancy, right after giving birth and the first few months is for postpartum depression.

[00:33:47] So then you internalize all this, like you were explaining before, this isn't going to happen this, or it's like the fault is in me when it's completely not. And none of the system is there to support either. So it's kind of just like, what can you control? What can't you control? But then it's also having this awareness of it. You have so much awareness of it because there's so many physicians that I've seen too, that will come out of this and not even realize what's happening to them until they are so severely depressed and wondering, how did I get here?

[00:34:17] Dr. Amna Shabbir: Yes.

[00:34:19] Dr. Jessica Singh: May I ask? So as you think about the major learning points, and you've shared so many of them along the way, but as you think about the physicians in training, the physician moms, people coaching physicians listening to this podcast, what do you feel like your advice for them would be?

[00:34:39] Dr. Amna Shabbir: I would ask everyone to just again, take a deep breath and pause because a lot of what's happening right now for the human involved is everything feels so rushed. It's such a hurry. It's such a pressure. Feels like life is literally flying. And so the first invitation is to pause. Take a deep breath, step away. Take a literal physical step back from whatever you're doing. Bring your body in the mixture. Everything is being carried in your brain right now. The top three things that I have noticed that are actual challenges stem from a combination of perfectionism and guilt and shame, as I mentioned. The second is lack of structural support, whether it's at work, whether it's at training. And then the third is this identity conflict between being in medicine, your ambitions, and then the very important realities of motherhood. The reason I phrase them out like that is when you don't know what you're going through, everything feels like a storm. So pause and recognize and then normalize.

[00:35:47] It is okay. It is okay for you to feel the way you're feeling in the context that you're at. I'm not saying it's okay that you are working in a toxic workplace that's not advocating for you or giving you the support that you need. That's not okay. Your feelings are okay and you have to validate and normalize them because nobody else will.

[00:36:09] Nobody else will because nobody is in your body feeling what you're feeling. So please hold that space for yourself. That's my first advice. Define what success looks like for you in this season of your life. What does it look like this week? What does it look like today? I was on a panel recently, and I was asked what my morning routine is, and my answer was, it depends on the morning.

[00:36:37] Because we have like these rigid fixed things in our mind now, which are again perpetuated by perfectionistic narratives, like, this is what everything else looks like. Do not look around at other people. Look at what you need to make this work today.

[00:36:54] The second thing is building on top of those self-compassion, self-compassion, self-compassion.

[00:37:01] The way you just talk to yourself you would never talk to any other woman, physician or woman clinician or a random woman doc walking down the street. Can you just talk to yourself the way you would talk to a stranger? I know self-compassion is like talk to yourself like somebody you love, but for me that felt really inaccessible. I berated myself so much and it was so unproductive. So we know that self-compassion helps. Like I feel that also prevented me from getting back in shape. If that's a motivation for you right now, be kind to yourself. I had given birth and I was like, okay, let's back, bounce back into shape in one week. What are we doing? What's my plan? Let's pretend like you never had children, like you're a teenager again. In our minds we're doing this. I was comparing my body to my teenage body. And when I was a teenager, I was comparing my body to somebody else, which is a whole different conversation. But if I had been more patient to myself and more kind to myself, maybe things would've been easier.

[00:38:05] And lastly, I would say ask for help. Tons of help. Ask for help to everyone and anyone. Divide your tasks in the types of help that you need, like real tangible: grocery childcare, you can never get enough help.

[00:38:21] There's nothing glorious about saying, oh, look at me, I do it all alone. I thought that was glorious. And then there is like this dopamine hit that you might be getting from the wrong places. Like for me, people would say, oh, have you seen, and mostly these were like my well-intentioned South Asian aunties, they would say, look at Amna. She has two kids and she's a full-time working doctor and her house looks like this. A nd I would say, yes, that is me. And then I would just keep going on that treadmill over and over again. Had I just like stepped away in that moment and said, oh no, like I need help. I am struggling. So delegate, ask for help.

[00:38:58] And then there is help to process things that are happening. Coaching, counseling, therapy, medication. Pick up the phone and call your friend. Don't be a hero in that moment, or heroine. Don't be that person. And asking for help includes setting boundaries. You know, it's okay. Say no. You don't have to show up in all the social spaces doing all the things.

[00:39:23] So if I was to summarize it all, I would say: pause, slow down, ask yourself, "what does success look like in this season of my life, for this day, for this week?" Be patient with yourself. Be kind with yourself and ask a ton of help.

[00:39:47] Dr. Jessica Singh: So beautifully said. One of my biggest takeaways from speaking with you and why I've loved ever since I met you and just getting to know you and every interaction we have is because yes, you have all this lived experience, but something that I always really admire about you is your courage and courage and honesty.

[00:40:04] And even just being able to talk about, let alone share on a podcast what you had gone through. And so in the spirit of that honesty, 'cause I know at the beginning also you said the intention disclaimer that this is not to give parental advice and that's not this, the purpose of this was just to share from these very intimate, vulnerable experiences for anyone listening to this, if it helps you. Dr. Shabbir has given such beautiful advice, and also in the spirit of just honesty and courage, it's really helpful to get to find other women and to learn from your experiences.

[00:40:37] Because the other experience in medicine that many have is also wanting to have children, but not having children yet. I always thought also at this stage of my life, I would be able to. You know, be in your shoes right now to have, be a guest on the show, you know, to talk about motherhood.

[00:40:50] And everyone has their own answers and I also have not really talked much about it. And so you just get so inspired with the sharing because whatever it is, it's not looking for sympathy, someone to pity you. It's, this is my journey. This is what I'm learning. This is how I'm growing and sharing it respectfully and making that space.

[00:41:09] So very much walking away with inspiration from all of your honesty and courage and strength. So much inner and outer beauty.

[00:41:17] Dr. Amna Shabbir: Thank you so much Dr. Singh. And thank you for creating spaces where we can have honest conversations because that truly is a gift where it is not advice, it is just experience share. I feel that when we all share experiences, that's what connects us on a human level, that's what creates this awareness "my goodness, I didn't even think of that." That also allows us to step away from maybe some of the things that we're ruminating about, so it's so powerful. I so appreciate the work that you do.

[00:41:48] Dr. Jessica Singh: Thank you. And for all the people who will be listening to this, thank you so much because as a resident, as physician in training anywhere you are just that feeling that you're alone when you're not. Thank you.

[00:42:00] Speaker: Thank you for listening to the Holistic Physician Coaching Podcast. This podcast is dedicated to making coaching more accessible and to support both physicians and those who coach them. Subscribe to access exclusive subscriber-only episodes, including physician coaching sessions, coaching debriefs, and coach mentoring sessions that offer valuable insights for professional development for coaches.

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