[00:00:00] Dr. Jessica Singh: Welcome to the Holistic Physician Coaching Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Jessica Singh. This podcast explores physician health, wellbeing, and fulfillment, embracing all aspects of the human experience. Just as in medicine where a single interaction can transform a life, this podcast is grounded on the belief that each coaching conversation has the power to inspire, heal, and bring about meaningful change. 

[00:00:34] In this episode today, I have the privilege of being mentored by Clare Norman. With over 20 years of coaching experience, Clare Norman is a master coach whose purpose is to embody people to feel truly seen for who they really are, emboldening them to find their voice and express their needs in service of a more caring world.

[00:00:57] With that end goal in mind, Clare is on a [00:01:00] mission to encourage coaches to be more vocal about coachability, expecting more of coaching custodians and thinkers alike, such that those thinkers are coaching-ready. With an international following of both her coaching peers and senior leadership, Clare is making a difference to the world of work via the professional application of coaching. Welcome Clare.

[00:01:26] Clare Norman, MCC: Thank you. It's lovely to be working with you again, Jessica.

[00:01:28] Dr. Jessica Singh: So grateful to be here and to be mentored by you, especially for this coaching session in particular. This was my fourth coaching session with Dr. Mary, and I've had her consent to share this with you, the session, and to be mentored by you.

[00:01:44] And this one was special, especially from a coaching hat, because she had the loss of a family member unexpectedly. And so not only would it be wonderful to have this mentoring session with you to navigate that, I don't think I've [00:02:00] ever received mentoring on coaching through acute grief even though there's often distinctions between therapy, counseling, and coaching, and how it could be applicable, and also the impact that the loss had on her, and obviously how it impacted her showing up for the session. 

[00:02:18] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. And so as you think back on this session, what is your initial noticing and/or wondering about the grief that was showing up for Mary?

[00:02:32] Dr. Jessica Singh: I was surprised. So before we did the session, we checked in for a few minutes, and in the check-in was when she told me that this happened, and so she didn't have a coaching topic for the day 'cause it was just a really sudden loss. And then on top of the loss, she had shared in confidence and then also in this coaching session that she believed it was from a medical error and mismanagement.

[00:02:55] And so she's the only healthcare provider with this depth of experience [00:03:00] and knowledge in her family. And so it, it was really difficult to process that, and then to kinda hear that all of a sudden and be like, "Okay, let's go into this coaching session now." And- Yeah ... she was very well composed at the beginning also when she talked about it.

[00:03:16] She was able to talk about it without crying. And so I also know that through physician training, we're trained to do that to survive. And you asked what I was noticing, was also processing it as a coach and hearing that holding space.

[00:03:31] Yeah. 

[00:03:32] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. And I find myself feeling really touched for her that you said you are trained not to bring tears, and yet this was a family member for her, and so it was closer to home, and yet she was still showing up very composed.

[00:03:51] And so, yeah, I feel myself welling up on her behalf in a way. And I [00:04:00] read a tiny bit of the transcript at the beginning, so I knew roughly what we were going to delve into here. But what was your sense of the quality of your coaching?

[00:04:17] Dr. Jessica Singh: I was surprised at the level of the ability to coach through this. I didn't feel out of scope at all. I didn't feel like I was crossing into, like, a physician hat or a counseling hat. I didn't feel like that. There were a couple instances I'd like to go through with you where I don't know if I was guiding or suggesting. But it was still all within the realm of a coach.

[00:04:38] Okay. So that was like a pleasant surprise on the ability to coach through grief from the scope of practice of a coach. Yeah. And so I thought that came by being grounded in what coaching is. But it was really remarkable having faith in what that can do. I think this is... How often do we as coaches get to experience this? We talk about [00:05:00] grief and trauma awareness all the time, but then how often do we get to practice? 

[00:05:04] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Yeah. That distinction between the medical side of things but also the therapeutic and the coaching side, here you're working with Mary as a human, and you have known her as a human, and as a medic, but it is the human that you are coaching here. And so being able to be with her in this stage of her very early grief I'm sure have been a gift to her to be able to process some of that.

[00:05:38] Oh, and I feel touched that Mary has allowed this to be shared as well. I'd like to say that out loud 'cause I can imagine it, it may well be very raw as we go through it. 

[00:05:50] Dr. Jessica Singh: That was another thing. One of the questions I had, and you'll see when we set the coaching agreement right away, was she's like, "I don't have a topic for today." And obviously [00:06:00] I sat there as a coach kind of observing everything, realizing, like, is this grief process at the level that she had to be composed and just- I also had to self-manage at the beginning 'cause I lost my grandmother. there was neglect by her primary care team and all of these things. And so it was like having that empathy of sadness for her, but also when you have that little bit of, "was this a medical error?", there's a lot of anger that comes, especially when you're practicing in the system, or at least I had that.

[00:06:30] So I really had to self-manage also at the beginning and not let that come into the session at all. And so for her I think I just asked organically. She had shared it in the check-in as we're about to listen to, and then I just asked her "Is this something you'd like to process?" And so I'm curious if it came up as, like, a suggesting a topic or if it was just organic.

[00:06:50] It was meant to come off organic, but when I was re-listening to this, I was going to ask you actually. 

[00:06:55] Clare Norman, MCC: Okay. All right. Well, shall we dig in right from the [00:07:00] beginning then and see how that shows up? 

[00:07:03] Dr. Jessica Singh: Yeah, that sounds great. 

[00:07:04] Clare Norman, MCC: Okay.

[00:07:05] Dr. Jessica Singh: Okay. I'm gonna... And then before that came up, there's a statement like a minute and at 50... this is really specific 'cause I get the pleasure of working with you. Yeah. The difference between sympathy and empathy as a coach, I know we try to go towards more empathy. I realized I let myself have an I statement, which was a sympathy statement in the setting of loss. And so I know we're supposed to avoid that as much as possible, but I was like, is it okay just in this sense when someone's telling you...

[00:07:30] But I just went for it. 

[00:07:31] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what I mean by the very human connection that we uh, need to have in this kind of situation. And so being sorry for a person's loss is very natural, very normal, and to be able to say that I think makes that human connection.

[00:07:54] Dr. Jessica Singh: Um- Thank you ... 

[00:07:56] Clare Norman, MCC: Is that the piece that you're referring to where you say you're sorry for her loss? [00:08:00] 

[00:08:00] Dr. Jessica Singh: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. All right. I'll play the recording from the beginning. 

[00:08:05] Clare Norman, MCC: Okay.

[00:08:05] Dr. Jessica Singh: In this episode, I have the privilege of coaching Mary. This is our fourth coaching session together. Mary is a family medicine intern from the United States.

[00:08:16] Welcome, Mary.

[00:08:18] Dr. Mary: It's great here, Jessica.

[00:08:19] Dr. Jessica Singh: It's been a couple of weeks since we last had a coaching session. What's coming up for you today? 

[00:08:27] Dr. Mary: Well, in terms of medicine and working honestly have been a pretty good couple weeks. In terms of personal things, it's been a little-- it's been pretty sad.

[00:08:38] I had my grandfather pass a week ago today, so working through some grieving. Grieving while working in the hospital, too. He passed away in the hospital, so there's been, I think, some lingering emotions with that. But to be with family and go up to see him before he officially passed.

[00:08:57] He was on life support briefly, so I was able to be there and [00:09:00] be there for my family and now we're back home and just transitioning back, I suppose.

[00:09:10] Dr. Jessica Singh: I am so sorry for your loss. I can't even imagine how difficult that must be knowing he's in hospital while you're working in the hospital. 

[00:09:22] Dr. Mary: Yeah, it was a lot of checking my phone and checking with family and I'm sure lots of people maybe you can relate to listening that when you're like the only medical knowledge person in your family and there's not a lot of hospital health literacy, people really rely on you to explain things going on.

[00:09:41] And so me calling the nurses station, trying to look for some of the information with family and also working around the hospital too. It was just, uh, not a lot. I felt grateful that I had the knowledge to be able to help and give insight. But yeah, ultimately he passed from what I would call a [00:10:00] medical mismanagement, which I think has been the hardest part of it all emotionally.

[00:10:04] So we're working through that, but I'm still otherwise grateful to be a doctor and working in the hospital right now and honestly, in terms of work-life balance, cannot complain. 

[00:10:20] Dr. Jessica Singh: Well, first of all, just grieving in general, and then secondly, having it happen from a medical error, do you feel like you have the resources you need in order to process through this grief?

[00:10:35] Or is this something you'd like to explore?

[00:10:41] Dr. Mary: I think I'd like to explore it. I feel like I do have the support. 

[00:10:46] Clare Norman, MCC: Let's stop there one moment.

[00:10:48] There is this space where you're wondering did you lead her there or, yeah. Yeah. I can see how you might wonder that. As it happens, she says, "Yes, I do. I would [00:11:00] like to explore." So perhaps there was something in your intuition telling you she wouldn't have said all of that if she didn't want to talk more about it here.

[00:11:10] If you were, 

[00:11:10] to have your time again, what might you wish to do differently such that she can lead you there rather than you leading her there? 

[00:11:24] Dr. Jessica Singh: I think one of my biggest takeaways from this experience was between coaching sessions, I usually will check in by email and just say, "Hey, how are you? How are you doing? How are things going?" Usually the response is fine. I don't know even if she would have wanted to write something like this in an email rather than say it in person. But I think one of the things I need to be more proactive about, and talk about it, but is giving coachees a pre-session what do you want to explore.

[00:11:51] Okay. Otherwise, setting the expectation that I can help you pick a topic for the day, but that will be like the first few minutes of the coaching session will be coaching [00:12:00] you through figuring out what the topic is. 

[00:12:02] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Yeah. And therefore, in this instance, how would you coach her to figure out what she wants to bring today?

[00:12:13] Dr. Jessica Singh: I think this question came up. I remember right before we hit the recording button, she said, "I'm sorry, I just don't have a topic for today," and so maybe that's why I kinda asked this, to just- Okay ... see where she was. But I think if I could have just asked her, "This is coming up for you, what would you like to explore today?"

[00:12:30] I would have just done it the way we normally do. 

[00:12:32] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. " Given that context of what's been going on in your life, what would you like to explore today?" Or, yeah, "given everything you've said here, what feels most pertinent to work on, most meaningful, most important?" Yeah. Any one of those would mean that she can choose to take herself there.[00:13:00] 

[00:13:00] Dr. Jessica Singh: Yeah.

[00:13:01] Clare Norman, MCC: Cause I think she would have gone there anyway because she's said so much already. She's obviously feeling comfortable enough with you, and fine enough for it to be recorded for her to say it on the recording, so I think she would have probably chosen to go there anyway. But that would have helped her to know that she had total say rather than being led there.

[00:13:26] Yeah. 

[00:13:27] Dr. Jessica Singh: Yeah, I agree with you. And it's hard 'cause I'm sitting here watching my thought processes and my biases come in, because just, like, the way she was able to be so composed again, and it was only a week after. Yeah. And I imagine that, I don't know, I feel like sometimes in medical education and training, it's not stated in a way that it's, like, okay to show emotion or okay to process it, or is it even okay to explore.

[00:13:51] And maybe that's just, this is again my own experience that I'm realizing projected greatly on this situation. Yeah. Because it's like, does she even know it's [00:14:00] okay to explore and to explore this from a human way? Yeah. Because the session was 45 minutes. 20 minutes into it, it just happened that it ended up in some breathing, and it was only a three-minute breathing session that happened in session.

[00:14:13] Then she completely switched and, like, chose a topic about work. 

[00:14:17] Clare Norman, MCC: Ah. So 

[00:14:21] Dr. Jessica Singh: it was not a typical coaching session at all. 

[00:14:24] Clare Norman, MCC: Right. Yeah. Yeah. So almost putting the lid back on it again and moving into something more she perceives to be coaching material. Yeah, interesting. And that could well be about her, yeah, your, both of your backgrounds in being told to put a lid on emotions.

[00:14:49] And that could be something to explore with her at that point where she chooses to go there, is to actually just check in "I'm noticing we've shifted gears here. [00:15:00] I want you to know that it really is okay if you want to keep talking about the grief and processing that here, then that, that is fine."

[00:15:09] But again, giving her that option, 'cause if that's not where she wants to go, of course she can choose not to go there.

[00:15:16] Dr. Jessica Singh: I was also wondering if it's ever happened to you as a coach where, let's say I asked her, "What topic would you like to choose?"

[00:15:22] And she chose something work-related despite having all of this come up. I guess that kinda happened in the second half of this, but I guess, when you realize as a coach there's something beneath the iceberg there, there's something beneath the surface, all that we are supposed to do is ask questions to evoke, to help them get there.

[00:15:40] Just because we see it doesn't necessarily mean that's what they need right now, I guess. I don't know if that's the same way. 

[00:15:47] Clare Norman, MCC: True. Yeah. It might not be the right timing for her to go there. It might be she doesn't wanna do it with you. She might wanna do it somewhere else, with family members, for example.

[00:15:58] I mean, there could be any number of [00:16:00] reasons that she wants to put that lid back on it. And yeah, so we can't presume that she needs to do this grieving process in the coaching session. There is something about helping people to realize that emotion is absolutely welcome in the coaching room. And so, one of the PCC markers, it's 4.4, says, "The coach partners with the client by inviting the client to respond in any way to the coach's contributions and accepts the client's response."

[00:16:40] So, We need to accept whatever they want. And we can invite them into exploring further. But then it's up to them if they wanna push that back. So if [00:17:00] they say, " no, I don't want to go there," or, "That's not work I wanna be doing today," then we have to accept that, absolutely.

[00:17:09] And there was something else I was thinking about another competency there. 

[00:17:13] Well, we know that 5.3 is important. A coach partners with the client by supporting the client to choose what happens in this session. So that's really what we're talking about here, isn't it? I'll be interested to see or to hear what was the actual question you asked at that 20-minute point.

[00:17:31] Because maybe there's something about, I don't know if you did actually say this, but the way you

[00:17:37] just presented it now, you said, "and what topic would you like to talk about?" And I wonder about that word topic, whether that takes a person out of emotion and into something more work-related. And so maybe there's something else there. I mean, I'm just thinking this off the top of my head.

[00:17:57] Maybe there's some other way [00:18:00] when we're in this emotional stuff, that we need to ask that question differently. So that would be an example of a 5.1, the coach acts in response to the whole person of the client. So yeah, topic almost feels like a very worky word whereas maybe there's something more here.

[00:18:23] I mean, you talked, in this sentence you just said about processing through this grief or... And you also said something you'd like... Is this something you'd like to explore? So maybe there's something more in those kinds of words, processing, exploring that might have invited her to stay with this if she chose to stay with it.

[00:18:49] We don't know. You still could have asked those questions in that way and she still might have said, "Actually, no, I'm done now. I'm ready to put the lid back on." [00:19:00] And that's entirely up to her. 

[00:19:03] Dr. Jessica Singh: That's a great point, just the wording. I would love to play the first part of this too especially before that switch happened and- 

[00:19:09] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah

[00:19:10] Dr. Jessica Singh: I think on the transcript it was more of where do you wanna go from here? But I have to look. But you're right, in terms of topic and having that be more work-related, I haven't thought of that before. 

[00:19:19] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I mean, nor had I really, so this is- Yeah. We're figuring it out together, as often happens. 

[00:19:28] Dr. Jessica Singh: Sure.

[00:19:29] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. 

[00:19:30] Dr. Jessica Singh: Is it okay so for if I continue playing then, because the first part of this was the coaching through the grief part, and then just to see how that was. Can I... Is it okay to continue from where we left? 

[00:19:41] Clare Norman, MCC: Absolutely. Yeah. 

[00:19:42] Dr. Jessica Singh: Do that. Thank you, Clare. Thank you.

[00:19:44] Dr. Mary: I think I'd like to explore it. I feel like I do have the support, but I don't know. It's something I feel like I, I'm just gonna have to work through with time and opening up more, I think, [00:20:00] to friends who are more medically inclined who can understand the situation. 'Cause it's good to grieve with family, but unfortunately, like, I don't want them to have a negative memory of this hospital experience. But definitely it is important, I think, for me in terms of grieving to open up about it to other people.

[00:20:17] And 

[00:20:20] Dr. Jessica Singh: what do you think might be most beneficial to you in terms of coaching, in terms of further exploring this grief? Ideally, what about it would you like to explore in our session together?

[00:20:31] Dr. Mary: I am not quite sure. I'm not sure if the topic of letting go of blame is something we could explore.

[00:20:45] That's, I think, the primary thing that I'm working through right now.

[00:20:49] Dr. Jessica Singh: What about it specifically is impacting you of letting go of blame? Can you tell me more about that?

[00:20:57] Dr. Mary: Yeah, I- [00:21:00] I'm just feeling a lot of, like a lack of control, like a frustration in the care that my grandpa got and obviously can't turn back time and change what happened.

[00:21:12] And of course, you know, no one in healthcare means to cause harm. I mean, very rarely would that ever be an exception, but no one in healthcare I believe, would ever try to cause harm. So trying to not unfairly blame people who took care of him and letting it go. Forgiveness, essentially. Trying to work on forgiveness and letting go of blame.

[00:21:37] Dr. Jessica Singh: What do you feel like may need to be addressed in order to actually do that, in order to be able to not blame or let go? 

[00:21:49] Dr. Mary: I'm not sure. I often intellectualize grief, like, that's a big coping mechanism that's probably common in doctors. But [00:22:00] I've done more research, like, on the error that was made, and is this a common thing? Was this mistake that was made, it was essentially a combination of medications I believe that should not have been given? Was that protocol, was it not? And I haven't really, I think, fully come to understand if it was part of protocol or not. But knowing that it is not an uncommon combination and that there are known but rare side effects that happened with my grandpa has helped me to give some grace, I think, to the healthcare team that was taking care of him.

[00:22:39] So that's one way at least I have approached trying to get around blame and let it go and giving forgiveness is knowing that it's maybe not a known side effect that they knew of or that, it was not intentional. I'm not sure how else to approach it.

[00:22:55] Dr. Jessica Singh: What would the letting go of blame or [00:23:00] and being able to forgive mean to you? 

[00:23:03] Clare Norman, MCC: Nice question. So let's stop it there a moment, Jess. So what are you noticing here as you listen in to her?

[00:23:12] Dr. Jessica Singh: She's obviously thought about this a lot. Yeah. It's very close to her. I'm realizing that you're... what you said, talked about intuition and coach wisdom and mentorship, I didn't know if... When she said at the beginning that, "I don't know if blame is a topic that we could explore."

[00:23:29] So the awareness for me is going up of making sure, as a coach, being able to invite everything into the coaching conversation- 

[00:23:38] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah ... 

[00:23:38] Dr. Jessica Singh: not just work topics. 

[00:23:40] Clare Norman, MCC: Yes. So, so actually saying out loud "if that's what's top of mind for you, then absolutely talking about blame is welcome in this room", or whatever it is.

[00:23:55] So whenever a person isn't quite sure, is [00:24:00] this something I can bring to coaching or not, then putting their mind at rest that, yes, absolutely you can do that. Anything else that you're noticing? 

[00:24:11] Dr. Jessica Singh: Something came up when you said that, and

[00:24:12] the thing that I'm noticing when you're saying that I'm aware of for the first time, is I feel like coaches, we get this definition of coaching ingrained in us, that it's this thought partnership. In the ICF coaching that, you work on your goals or optimize your potential, or I love what you have referenced to in your work about shifting from known to new thinking.

[00:24:33] And I still feel like, even to this day with, I- I know I'm still obviously growing, I don't really have language at the beginning. I usually do talk about goals, "Is there something in your life you'd like to work on?" But inviting emotions into the table is huge. Yeah. And to just figure out language in terms of like, this is also okay for coaching.

[00:24:53] Yeah. I would like to make that more part of a routine in a way that people can even understand that, because I feel like it impacts... [00:25:00] At the beginning she said on professional level, work level, things are fine. On a personal level, they're not. Yeah. And they're just, how can that be?

[00:25:07] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Yeah. And, she is a whole human being. She is not a work person over here and a human person over here. Whatever happens to her at home is going to be impacting her at work, and vice versa. No matter how much you guys have been trained to put a lid on emotion, this is personal to her. This is not somebody who she's taking care of who has died. This is her grandfather who has died. So, yeah.

[00:25:36] PCC marker 4.3 says, "The coach acknowledges and supports the client's expression of feelings, perceptions, concerns, beliefs, or suggestions." So there's something there about being really acknowledging that it's okay to bring feelings into the room.

[00:25:54] And one of the things I'm noticing is that she says, [00:26:00] "I often intellectualize grief," 'cause that's what we've been trained to do. And, it fit, yeah, she's almost when we think about the grief curve for the human, not the medic, but for the human, and I've just noticed that I've split them out into two parts when actually they are a whole person. But the grief curve does take us through blame. So this is a very natural place to go through. She says, "I often intellectualize," so I'm wondering: Is she not allowing herself to go into those emotions not just to blame, but actually the sadness that is there for her, 'cause she's still in her medical " I know that they've done something wrong here because I'm a medic", as opposed to her granddaughter sadness. [00:27:00] And again, it is her choice.

[00:27:02] And I don't want to force her to get into her sadness here but there's something about saying that it's okay to bring that sadness into the room as well, and just because we know about the grief curve that there are all sorts of emotions wrapped up in that curve. And I imagine you all got trained on the grief curve as part of your medical training?

[00:27:28] Dr. Jessica Singh: We went through the five stages of grief, I remember, from my medical education. But the really interesting thing about what you're saying is, because of the way I think we have to function, the awareness for, at least I've noticed for myself, for many physicians, the awareness of our own emotions and lack of processing is lacking because there's no support, grace, space, time.

[00:27:50] Sometimes it's like if you do... Like, if she wanted to take, I don't know, let's say two or three days or whatever to process all this, she wouldn't be able to. I have lots of family [00:28:00] members, often they miss funerals, they're not able to travel, and then you're dealing with the death of patients also.

[00:28:05] And so, especially in residency, they are so pressed, and then balancing their own lives. So it's I actually think one of the biggest deficits of medical education and a place where coaching can really help is the processing and the emotional awareness unfortunately, because when we don't process things like this, it impacts us for years, and then- 

[00:28:25] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah.

[00:28:26] Yeah, exactly. And, we might have some therapists listening into this saying "no, you can't go there as a coach." But, human to human, recognizing the other person's sadness is really important as one human to another human being. Because she's talking about talking to other medics and again, that won't be a place where she talks about her emotions, I imagine.

[00:28:57] So it certainly could be worth [00:29:00] a conversation about is coaching the place for her to talk about her sadness about her grandfather, or actually is that something she'd like to take to therapy to talk through? And you are with her right in this moment with her, so helping her to know that you're okay to listen if she wants to express her sadness underneath all of this as 

[00:29:28] well.

[00:29:28] Dr. Jessica Singh: That's interesting you said that, because I remember when I was doing this, I was kinda going through that in the back of my head. Do I need to introduce this, if she wanted support? Is this something she would like to work further with someone else? But for me, she didn't hit any of those red flags, like, when you feel like you really need to refer to somebody. And usually most hospitals, for physicians in training at least in the US, they do give some kind of free counseling. And so even just mentioning that as a support, like, what resources do you have to actually just explore your emotions around this- Yeah [00:30:00] whether or not she's demonstrating si- that's not within necessarily my scope, is not to decide if she needs it or not. It's for her to decide if she needs it or not. Yeah. And to realize what's available. 

[00:30:10] Clare Norman, MCC: Yes. Yeah. Uh, 'cause she might be very blinkered at this point in, this, "I've gotta contain it. I've gotta contain it for my family wellbeing. I've gotta contain it for myself as a medic." And so she's got blinkers on and perhaps not thinking about what does she need to process all of this. Yeah. Yeah, it's ... Okay. 

[00:30:38] Dr. Jessica Singh: I tried to also ask questions to shift her out afterwards of the intellectualizing, so, I moved on to asking her about what are you feeling, to try to name emotions.

[00:30:47] Nice. And then I tried to ask her, like, where is she actually feeling the grief in her body. 

[00:30:53] Clare Norman, MCC: Ah. Good. 

[00:30:55] Dr. Jessica Singh: And so, and then to name the emotions, which again, I think that just [00:31:00] came listening to her to just have the acknowledgments. 

[00:31:02] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. 

[00:31:03] Dr. Jessica Singh: And then I could play this part for you, but it's about 10 minutes into it.

[00:31:08] So we... I asked her, "Where are you feeling the grief in your body?" And she had done that. Then I asked her, "Where are you feeling this regret?" And I'm just realizing I question stacked here, 'cause I also asked, "What do you think might be helpful for you in terms of mobilizing these emotions?" 

[00:31:24] And then this was also one of the few times, usually when I do breathing or offer breathing for grounding, it's either usually at the beginning of a session if the coachee is receptive and wants it for a couple of minutes. Once in a blue moon, it comes up in the middle when strong emotions come, and she wanted it in the middle.

[00:31:39] Clare Norman, MCC: Yep. Okay, good. So where do you want to restart the recording for us to listen then? 

[00:31:47] Dr. Jessica Singh: Okay, so two places. I am also mindful of time. I'd like to just go over the, where are you feeling this regret, the transition into the breathing activity. Again, it's difficult because with breaths, if you're guiding [00:32:00] it as a coach, even if the coachee wants it, there's still an element of guiding.

[00:32:04] And I guess that's up to style. And then after that, just the switch part about how we ended up switching topics, that would be really helpful. 

[00:32:11] Clare Norman, MCC: Okay. Yeah. Okay. That's two.

[00:32:14] Dr. Jessica Singh: And where are you feeling this regret? 

[00:32:18] Still in my stomach 

[00:32:21] Dr. Mary: Kind of like pretty deep. Just look low stuff

[00:32:25] Dr. Jessica Singh: What do you think may be helpful for you just in terms of thinking about the feelings where they are in your body in terms of mobilizing 

[00:32:36] Dr. Mary: them? Taking actual deep breaths. I feel like when I'm talking about this or thinking about it or just mornings and I'm not really breathing very easily at all, very shallow. Kind of holding it all in.

[00:32:53] Dr. Jessica Singh: And so what would the breathing bring to you?

[00:32:57] Dr. Mary: Tension release, I think. [00:33:00] Yeah. Release, relaxation 

[00:33:06] Dr. Jessica Singh: And how may you... I know we had talked about this before, but in much different context about grounding with the breath. But as you think about where you are right now, how would you like to practically ground in the breath and use the breath to help mobilize these feelings?

[00:33:24] Dr. Mary: Just breathing right now. Remind myself to take some deep breaths and exhale all the way. I guess remembering that too. Trying to just breathe throughout today in particular maybe. I'm home today, and I feel like when I'm home and when I get moments of rest, when my mind isn't busy, that's when I start to grieve again.

[00:33:48] So I'm just letting myself feel it as I breathe through it.

[00:33:57] Dr. Jessica Singh: I know there's more awareness now 'cause we just talked about where are you feeling [00:34:00] this, and so I'd just like to offer if you'd like to take a couple of deep breaths together and ground that insight into action, then I'm happy to offer that if you'd like.

[00:34:12] Dr. Mary: I would love that. Thank you. 

[00:34:13] Dr. Jessica Singh: So I realize I guided there 'cause she also could have asked. I don't know how I would have asked her to ask if she wanted to, but it I don't know, I guess a little guiding comes in. 

[00:34:24] Clare Norman, MCC: Well, you offered it. You still offered it, you said, "If you'd like," and so she could easily say, "No, actually, I don't like. I don't wanna do that, thank you."

[00:34:37] 'Cause she, if you'd done it with her before, she knew what it was you were inviting her into. So I think it was invitational enough. There was one thing that, that happened just a little bit earlier where... And so what I'm noticing is that you're talking about mobilizing the feelings, [00:35:00] which is almost suggesting we need to get rid of them or we need to move through this quickly as opposed... yes, that might be where you get to, is mobilizing them, but not talking about the mobilization too early.

[00:35:17] And the same when you said something about mobilizing them to get to action or moving them through to get to action, Oh, insight into action you said. That suggests that the action piece is more important than really feeling the feelings.

[00:35:35] And actually feeling the feelings is the bit that she's not allowing herself to do, or hasn't been allowing herself to do, 'cause she's been keeping it all in. So, the invite into feeling the feelings is good, and don't rush through that to get to action is what I'm saying. Or don't suggest to her that you need to rush through it in order to get to [00:36:00] action, 'cause that might have also planted this seed in her head about, "Okay, we've gotta do this breathing bit, and then we get onto a topic of real meaning," in inverted commas.

[00:36:12] She may be interpreting what you're saying about the action and the mobilization as needing to get onto something else, when actually this work is so important and so rich for her.

[00:36:24] Dr. Jessica Singh: It's amazing the amount of subliminal bias that gets into the wording we choose, because to be honest, like, this, you're absolutely right, and in the future when this happens, it will be, "Would you like to breathe into these feelings?" Take the word mobilizing completely out. 

[00:36:37] Clare Norman, MCC: Yes. 

[00:36:38] Dr. Jessica Singh: And because it's, I know she was intellectualizing, and so I was trying to bring the somatization in. And in doing that, again, and even with emotional intelligence and a lot of the self-taught stuff, it's always about mobilizing emotions, movement, and release. But you're right, if you have to, first step is allow yourself to feel- Yeah ... and to honor that. 

[00:36:58] Clare Norman, MCC: Yes. 

[00:36:59] Dr. Jessica Singh: Yeah. 

[00:36:59] Clare Norman, MCC: [00:37:00] Yeah. Spend a bit of time there feeling the feelings. Yeah. And that will more than likely start to mobilize them anyway without having to push or pull or, you know- Do this stuff that we've always done in the past, which is to try and squash them.

[00:37:23] Yeah. I do think our culture has a lot to answer for in terms of these action-orientated words, and we don't know that we're doing it. And so it's only when we listen back and we look at a transcript and we're like, "Oh, look at that." What did that just do to her? Or say to her or what seed did that plant in her mind?"

[00:37:46] Yeah. 

[00:37:46] Dr. Jessica Singh: I didn't even realize that, honestly, before this mentoring session, because I was like, "Wow, we explored the grief, we did the breathing session," and now all of a sudden it's like a drive into something else. Yeah. Not realizing these little breadcrumbs, like you said. Yeah. Those [00:38:00] little seeds. 

[00:38:01] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Exactly. 

[00:38:02] Dr. Jessica Singh: I also think it was important 'cause I had a coaching session after this, and she had been on a difficult rotation, and I noticed immediately the survival mode that had to go in and the difference in processing. And so I really want to invite that into the room again just for her if she decides she wants to.

[00:38:18] But- Yeah ... it definitely is so important to realize. 

[00:38:21] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. There was one more part. You wanted to see what happened at that shift point where she moved. 

[00:38:27] Dr. Jessica Singh: Oh, yes. And then just an overall... There was one session I had before this with her- ... where she had talked about how frustrating it was having long work days, and she visualized actually having her self-talk out loud in that coaching session, and she's like, "I've never done this before."

[00:38:43] And it's like, what would you tell yourself if you were your own best friend?" And this, it comes to this because she said she had a huge shift in having less frustration at work after that one coaching session. And so in this part that we're shifting to, it was really humbling to me to realize, [00:39:00] like, this person's working 80 to 100 hours a week.

[00:39:02] Yeah. And, it's not necessarily about thinking, "I don't have time for coaching." It's whatever time you have, realizing that even one conversation can change how you experience life. 

[00:39:11] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Make a big difference. And, two years later they might come back to you and say, "That one thing that happened in that one session," and you can't even remember what it was, but they remember it so vividly because it had this catalyzing effect on them or it might not have been an overnight thing, but slow, drip drip, and then two years later, wow, it's made a difference.

[00:39:39] Dr. Jessica Singh: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to try to play this session, and then my eyes fell down on the transcript, and I'm like, "Oh, maybe I did it again here in terms of-" Ah ... shifting her. So let's see what happens.

[00:39:52] What did you notice during that activity?

[00:39:57] Dr. Mary: Felt like I was able to release [00:40:00] the regrets, tension that was in my stomach.

[00:40:03] 

[00:40:04] Dr. Jessica Singh: Can you tell me more about what you observed with the breathing? 

[00:40:07] Dr. Mary: That was grounding 'cause I don't know, maybe this is just me, but I feel like sometimes I get, like, a little tingly. It's like my shoulders get a little tingly. I get, like, little goosebumps.

[00:40:15] So I feel like that in my shoulders. I feel it on my scalp too. And then I felt, and I still feel, just less tension in my abdomen. Like I'm not holding things and kinda like activating my abdomen, but just, I don't know, soft belly. 

[00:40:38] Dr. Jessica Singh: And so we have about another 27 minutes or so together and just thinking about where would you like to go from here? 

[00:40:50] Dr. Mary: We can't solve grief in one session, so that's okay. I feel like we can definitely talk about, how work has been going as well. Last time we talked about... 

[00:40:58] Clare Norman, MCC: Okay, do you want to stop now?

[00:40:59] Dr. Mary: A lot of the, [00:41:00] 

[00:41:00] like, frustration. 

[00:41:01] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. So what might you h- be noticing about that question? We have another 27 minutes. 

[00:41:12] Dr. Jessica Singh: I tried to do the recontracting thing or contracting in the middle of the session, 'cause there was a pause before that. Yeah. And maybe I could have let it just be a longer pause. Yeah.

[00:41:22] Maybe part of me was feeling like I had to move a conversation when I didn't. And so I'm curious what would have happened if I didn't say anything at all. 

[00:41:29] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. And just let her stay with that feeling in her abdomen and the soft belly, or maybe asked another question about her soft belly. What's the soft belly saying to you now? Or what messages are you getting from your abdomen as you relax into it and release the tension? Something that just peels that onion just a little bit more. Yeah. [00:42:00] I think there's something about... So I do always say it- it's good to tell them how much time you have, but there's something about it right here in this instance that made it sound like we've gotta move on 'cause we've just got 27 minutes to play with.

[00:42:20] I mean, you didn't have that tone of voice, but something about time that does that to people, isn't it? That kind of moves the conversation on, when actually this is the place where the real rich... It does sound like it was rich for her to be able to release that, some of that tension. 

[00:42:41] Dr. Jessica Singh: I guess my question is, in terms of PCC markers, setting the coaching agreement, going from having no topic, would you like to explore this, and then where would you like to be at the end of the session? In re-listening to this, this was not the best question to ask here. There were so many other questions, like you stated.

[00:42:56] I didn't realize that the end part, where would you like to go from here, I was [00:43:00] hoping maybe it would be more of, like, with the grief or something. Right. Obviously she took it differently, and I understand why. 

[00:43:06] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. 

[00:43:06] Dr. Jessica Singh: But I guess The other thing I'm noticing with my questions, I'm not reflecting as much as I think I could be, or diving into her statements, rather than- ... moving forward. I'm taking the I's out less a little bit. My thought processing is coming out a little less. It's a work in progress. 

[00:43:21] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. Well done. 

[00:43:22] Dr. Jessica Singh: But I realize that one of my, I don't know if I'm, like, thinking so much about the question, simplifying it, moving it forward, that I'm not allowing myself to reflect as much, and I feel like that's something maybe for a future mentoring sessions I'd like to work on with you is getting more comfortable with the reflections and really, like, this was a crucial moment for her. And how much more wonderful it would've been if I could've unpeeled it. Yeah. I guess I didn't know how to do that. 

[00:43:48] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. And it is about taking the last thing that they just said and asking a question that's wrapped around whatever that last thing is.

[00:43:57] So in this case, [00:44:00] it might be, well, so having activated your ab- abdomen-

[00:44:06] What more are you noticing? Or what's going on with that soft belly? So those are two of the last things that she said. So asking something else about those and/or maybe you do wrap it in with time. So it could be something like, "So we have 27 minutes to play with, and I'm wondering what would your abdomen and your soft belly like us to work with now?"

[00:44:38] So that would be a way to have both/and. 

[00:44:41] Dr. Jessica Singh: I think also I realized that it shifted, and then just going through the transcript and for time's sake I tried to tie it back into the earlier part of the session. So whatever she wanted to shift up with work, and whatever insight she gained from the work we did for perspective to shift- so how could you tie that into now, into grief, everything we [00:45:00] discussed today? And so we do somehow get back to it a bit. I know we came... It seemed like an abrupt pull-out, though, with that question. Yeah. So definitely if I had my time over, I would not have done that. Yeah. But somehow it made it back, and I think that disorienting part again was when someone doesn't have an agenda, there's something so acute that just happened. How do you set the agenda then now? 

[00:45:22] Clare Norman, MCC: Yes. So it might be something a- as simple as- that grief is welcome in this room for us to work with as the thing that you wanna work on and see... because chances are they probably have decided, "Oh, that's not a coaching topic. I can't do that."

[00:45:44] So something about helping them to know that absolutely you can, it's welcome in this room. Yeah 

[00:45:52] Dr. Jessica Singh: Thank you so much. 

[00:45:53] Clare Norman, MCC: So what are you going to experiment with, Jess, between now and the next time? 

[00:45:59] Dr. Jessica Singh: Inviting [00:46:00] emotions into the coaching conversation more proactively. 

[00:46:03] And being more comfortable with more silence. Yeah. Trying to sit in the space of not wanting to guide or suggest, even if it comes up, and reflecting, trying to figure out how to reflect more on the last thing that someone says. 

[00:46:21] Clare Norman, MCC: Yeah. All right. Well, I look forward to hearing the next iteration of Jess the coach. 

[00:46:30] Thank you so much. These sessions have been so amazing.

[00:46:32] Oh, good. And I'm learning something here too, as I said. Quite often listening into other people makes us think twice about, "oh, did that word land?" Or " how might we do that even better?" So yeah, I'm getting huge amounts out of this too. Thank you. 

[00:46:52] Speaker 4: Thank you, Clare.

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